The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Laura Anne Jones.

'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'

Laura Anne Jones AC: 1. What consideration did the Welsh Government give to the Scottish gender recognition reform Bill when creating the 'LGBTQ+ Action Plan for Wales'? OQ59239

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. The commitment to seek devolved powers related to gender recognition, and to support our trans communities, was included in our programme for government and is part of the co-operation agreement. The LGBTQ+ action plan has included this commitment since its first draft. These are policies made in Wales, not in Scotland.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, last month, you stated your intention to copy the Scottish self-ID Bill with the release of your LGBTQ+ action plan, which intends to make it easier for biological males to enter women-only spaces, push gender ideology in schools, and unfairness in sport. First Minister, there was outrage in Scotland at the gender recognition reform Bill, with polling consistently showing that the Scottish public did not agree with the move. And it's clear from public opinion across Wales and the UK that people see the importance of protecting women and girls, and why such a Bill would put that in jeopardy. Yet, you still push ahead with your plans. Did you learn nothing from the debacle in Scotland? This move to copy Scotland would only serve to deny biological fact and appease a small minority in your party. Men and women up and down the country are genuinely concerned with your blinkered vision on this, and are also concerned by the shadow Secretary of State's sharing images directly from your Welsh Labour conference inciting hate against those standing up for women and girls. First Minister, do you condone their behaviour, and do you finally understand the genuine concern at your plan and your intention to copy the Scottish self-ID Bill?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, transgender people who are going through the process to change their legal sex deserve our respect, support and understanding. That is what the Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland said on the floor of the House of Commons when introducing the Government's proposal to block the gender recognition Act in Scotland. I think the Member could do very well to take what the Secretary of State for Scotland said to heart, and think about what she has said on the floor of the Senedd this afternoon through that lens.
There is nothing in what this Government intends to do that would merit the description that the Member has offered us here this afternoon. We will pursue, as I said in my original answer, Llywydd, not policies developed elsewhere, but policies that we will develop here in Wales—policies that were in our manifesto, on which we were elected, policies that have been there in our programme for government since the start of this Senedd term, and policies that are set out in more detail in the LGBTQ+ action plan, with its 46 different policy proposals. Those are based on that sense of respect, support and understanding, and if this debate was more characterised by those qualities, it would be a lot better for it.

The Roads Review

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Government's response to the roads review? OQ59264

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth. The Government’s response was set out by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change in a statement to the Senedd on 14 February.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Simply put, what I'm asking the First Minister to do today is to hold a genuine review of the decision not to proceed with the scheme for the Menai crossing. I note that the Burns commission has received a request to look at different options. I have put forward an argument to that commission for reviving this scheme. Of course, the roads review's focus on the environment was mainly the basis for the announcement. But I have a copy here of the consultation on the options for what kind of bridge to construct and what route to follow, and it shows that the Welsh Government itself selected the scheme that would be most damaging in terms of the impact on biodiversity and the environment, and would create the biggest increase in traffic. And it shows too that smaller schemes would be more cost-effective, potentially. I have to say that I had foreseen something simpler—the dualling of the Britannia, to all intents and purposes, with active travel routes.
So, I want the First Minister to look again at the original needs for the crossing and how to deliver them, and at the need to improve safety, opportunities for active travel, and the economic boost that comes from having a more resilient crossing—for delivering on the free port, for example. The roads review itself shows that a new bridge would deliver all of those benefits. And part of the work, Llywydd, which needs to be done urgently, is to look again at how we can deliver that in a way that has the least negative impact on the environment. Will the First Minister agree to do that?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I recall the context at the time when the then First Minister said that we would be continuing with the third crossing across the Menai strait, because I was Minister for finance at that time, and the context was that of Wylfa B. And I remember everything that we discussed at that time with the company responsible for the Wylfa B project—whether it was possible to draw funding in for a third crossing, because there would be far more traffic flowing to Anglesey and off Anglesey. I also recall the discussions with the National Grid, and the original suggestion from the National Grid was to create a tunnel under the strait, and we were discussing with them whether it would be possible to use that funding to help with the cost of a bridge. So, the context has fundamentally changed, hasn’t it, because everything that was on the table with Wylfa B isn’t there now.
But what I can tell the Member today is what is set out in our plan. We say that we want to see options for a crossing of the Menai in a way that helps us in our effort to create a shift in the way in which people currently travel. We’ve asked Lord Burns and the commission looking into transport in north Wales to look at how we can do that and to make recommendations to Government on that basis. And that’s how we want to proceed. We are open to whatever Lord Burns recommends, and everything that was contained within the report that Rhun ap Iorwerth has referred to this afternoon is available to Lord Burns and the commission that he leads.

Mark Isherwood AC: The national road traffic projections 2022 study, published by the UK Department for Transport in January, shows that road traffic in Wales and England could grow by as much as 54 per cent between 2025 and 2060, with a 22 per cent rise under the core scenario, and the most modest estimate being an 8 per cent increase. Despite this, under all the projections, emissions are projected to fall by as much as 98 per cent as motorists move towards greener vehicles. However, following publication of the Welsh roads review, your Government stopped or scrapped all but 17 of 55 road projects, including all but one of 16 projects in north Wales. Whilst I've long opposed the red route in Flintshire, many of these projects were badly needed, from work on the Menai crossing referred to, to the scrapping of plans to upgrade the A483 around Wrexham. And only yesterday, their council leader told me this was a broken promise, which had already cost them hundreds of thousands of pounds, and the Welsh Government millions. What, if any, action will you therefore now take to ensure the well-being of future generations by planning ahead to meet the needs identified in the 2022 road traffic projections study?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there are some basic things that the Member needs to take into account, particularly when he refers to the needs of future generations. The crisis of our time is a crisis of climate change, and it is those future generations, if we do not act now, which will be left with the consequences of our refusal to face up to that challenge. The roads review is the first root-and-branch review of road building in Wales for many generations. It challenges received wisdom on road building, but it needs to challenge that received wisdom because it is that received wisdom that has got us into the position we are in today. We have to reduce our carbon emissions. Transport makes up 15 per cent of our total emissions in Wales and it has been the most stubborn sector in reducing those emissions. That's why we have to face up to that fact and take the action that will leave those future generations in a better place than they would be. If we simply accepted those very challenging figures that Mark Isherwood set out in the opening of his supplementary question, are we prepared simply to see a future in which traffic goes on growing in that way and emissions go on growing alongside it? Well, this Government is not. That is why we have the roads review, and that is why, when it comes to schemes such as the Menai and such as Wrexham, we're not saying there isn't a problem, we're not saying there isn't something that needs to be done; we're simply saying that the plans of the future have to be based on our responsibilities to tackle that climate emergency, and simply carrying on with the solutions of the past is guaranteed to make that problem worse and not better.

Vikki Howells AC: Fist Minister, you will, of course, be aware that for any projects that weren't given the green light by the roads review, the advice to local authorities has been to go back to the drawing board and to consider, in accordance with WelTAG 1, alternative measures to mitigate, for example, local problems of road safety. What specific help can Welsh Government provide to local authorities around this? And, most importantly, are there any plans to revise the criteria for the Welsh Government's road safety grant, for which evidence must be provided to show serious or fatal road traffic incidents before a local authority is able to gain financial assistance?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, can I thank Vikki Howells for what is a very timely question. Llywydd, the road safety framework for Wales dates back as far as 2013, and, although there was a midway review of it in 2018, now is the time when we need to bring forward a new road safety strategy, one that will align with 'Llwybr Newydd' and the national transport delivery plan. And because the roads review is about reprioritising the investment we make on roads, it means that money that might have been spent on new roads can be reprioritised into improving existing road infrastructure, and, of course, that does include safety as well. When the Minister brings forward the new road safety document, then reviewing grant criteria will be developed alongside that new strategy, and I know that the Minister's officials are very happy to discuss specific schemes with local authorities in that context.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. With your permission, Presiding Officer, I'd like to put on the record that our thoughts and prayers are with the family of the man who was killed yesterday in the tragedy in Swansea, and, also, I'm pleased to hear that two of the three people who went into hospital have now been discharged, and thank the emergency services and first responders at what must have been an apocalyptic scene when they arrived there to deal with the fallout from whatever the report into it will determine caused that devastating scene that we saw in the news reels last night and in the papers today.
First Minister, last week, one of your Ministers called the Royal College of Nursing an 'extremely militant' organisation. He also said they were
'determined to have a fight',
and aren't seriously willing to negotiate. That's a direct quote. Is that your take on the RCN and the dispute that they're engaged with with your Government over nurses' pay?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I begin by agreeing with what the leader of the opposition said about events in Swansea yesterday? It must have been a hugely frightening experience for others who live in that locality. And the leader of the opposition is right, isn't he—we expect our emergency services to run towards sources of danger that other people will be running away from, and they are immensely brave, and the response they mounted yesterday was, thankfully, effective. Of course, our thoughts are with the family of the particular individual who lost their life, while we are glad to see the recovery of others caught up in that very frightening incident.
As far as the second part of the leader of the opposition's question, I'm First Minister, not a commentator on what other people say. What I can do is to be clear about the Welsh Government's position: we approach all industrial matters as a Government on the basis of social partnership. The RCN is a long-standing and valued member of the social partnership arrangements we have in health, and they are there today in the room discussing with employers and the Welsh Government ways in which we can continue to improve the performance of our national health service and the way in which those workers who we rely upon within it can be properly rewarded for the work that they do.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm pleased that you clarified what the Government's view is on what the RCN stands for—it is a view that I have—and also I declare an interest in having family members who are members of the Royal College of Nursing, a dedicated professional body of people who look after us in our time of need in hospitals and community settings. But do you not think it would be appropriate for a Minister, Deputy Minister, to actually apologise for those remarks that have caused upset to nurses within the profession, who do not want to be on strike, who are not a militant organisationand aren't up for the fight? They just want to get on with the job of looking after the patients who they care so passionately about.

Mark Drakeford AC: I've never known any public sector workers who want to be on strike. Llywydd, the truth of the matter is is that members of the RCN have been to driven to express their reaction to a decade of austerity, followed by galloping inflation on the money that they have to manage with every week. And you will never find a Welsh Government Minister who would say that public sector workers driven to that way of doing things don't deserve to be respected, and they are respected here in Wales, and they are included, as I say, within the social partnership arrangements. We'll have an opportunity tomorrow to vote on the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. I look forward to the support of the leader of the opposition and his members in that—. Oh, it's today, I beg your pardon—later today. So, I look forward to his support then.
Many people say, in the heat of the moment, things. I've been reading what was being said between the Secretary of State for Health and the Secretary of State for Education when they competed with one another to criticise teachers during the COVID outbreak. I think those things are better put on one side. I've set out the position of the Government, and unambiguously that is one of inclusion, respect and joint approaches to problem solving.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, you said that a Government Minister has not said that and doesn't support it. I gave you a direct quote of what the Deputy Minister said. That is a matter of fact. It is a matter of record, and people will see what the Minister said in the context of the Royal College of Nursing. Last week, you voted with the Conservatives—which was very pleasing, thank you very much for voting with us on our motion about the roads review—about the lack of consultation, the lack of the ability for the roads review panel to speak to communities, public representatives, businesses, the third sector. There was no ambiguity in what you were voting on, yet you clearly believe that there has been a lack of engagement in formulating this important policy that the Government has brought forward. If you believe there's a lack of engagement and constructive dialogue to formulate this policy, how can people have confidence that this policy stands the test of scrutiny and will deliver on your aspirations when you vote against the policy, as you did last week?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I imagine that any party who puts a motion down in front of the Senedd does so in the hope that they will persuade other people to support it. I'm puzzled that the leader of the opposition wants to take issue with the fact that we supported the motion that he put down. Now, I know that the—[Interruption.] He can't take 'yes' for an answer, indeed. So, the person who led the roads review has written to all Senedd Members today, Llywydd—maybe the leader of the opposition hasn't had a chance to catch up with that yet—setting out the engagement that the roads review panel undertook, and it is extensive, but also making the distinction—which the Minister made, I know, in answering the debate—that there was engagement of the sort that was appropriate to the roads review panel. And then there will be further opportunities for public consultation and engagement when particular schemes come forward for their implementation. That's a different sort of engagement. It doesn't mean that there wasn't engagement by the roads review panel, as the chair has set out, and there will be, in the case of the different aspects of the roads review, further opportunities, often statutory opportunities, for people to have their voices heard, their views known, and so to help shape policy, no doubt in the way that the leader of the opposition hoped he was doing last week when he put down his motion for debate.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you very much. May I, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, echo that our thoughts are all with the family in Morriston who lost a loved one in the terrible accident yesterday, and everyone else who was affected by it.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, the UK Government has again and again refused to reclassify HS2 as an England-only project, robbing Wales of £5 billion in Barnett consequentials that could be transformative of our public transport infrastructure. That's even though the UK Government's own analysis shows that it's more likely to damage Wales than to provide any benefit. Will you be calling on any future Labour administration to rectify that mistake?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I believe it's common ground across all parties on the floor of the Senedd that HS2 has been wrongly classified by the UK Government, that it should be classified on the basis, as in Scotland, that there are Barnett consequentials. That is the policy of this Government. I've articulated it many times here.

Adam Price AC: Just on the specific, First Minister—because this is quite important, isn't it—will that remain your position in the event of a Labour administration in Westminster? Will you be making that point very forcefully to a future Labour administration, not just to give Wales its share of any future expenditure, but also to give us the £1 billion that we've lost already through the £20 billion phase 1 expenditure there's already been? Now, it was welcome to hear the leader of the UK Labour Party commit to the repatriation to Wales of powers over structural funds, but can you say whether you expect any future Labour administration as well to honour the commitment that Wales would not receive a penny less than it would have received under the 2020 to 2027 programming period for European funds? So, between 2024 and 2027, that would mean an additional £1 billion in funding to Wales on top of, of course, the £1 billion that you have pointed out as a Government we have lost between 2021 and 2025.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, it was a very welcome announcement indeed that Sir Keir Starmer made at the weekend, that, should there be a Labour Government after the next general election, the powers and the funding that have been taken away from Wales will be restored to Wales, so that the decisions on those really important regional economic development decisions will be taken here in this Senedd. I look forward very much to working as hard as I can to make sure that we have that opportunity here in Wales.
An incoming Labour Government inevitably will have to make difficult spending decisions, given the economic circumstances that it will inherit. We will be there, of course, working alongside our Labour colleagues, were they to be in that position, to maximise the draw-down of funds to Wales.

Adam Price AC: So, if I understand the First Minister correctly, you're not able to say that a future Labour administration would commit to the same level of funding that we would have had under European funds, and you're not able to say that we will get the Barnett consequential.
In relation to the devolution of powers, the leader of the Labour Party said that he will await the publication of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. Now, given its pivotal status, based on that statement in the formation of Labour Party policy for the next election, can you say whether you will be specifying in your further submissions to the commission the powers that you as a Labour Government here in Wales are seeking to have devolved? Will they still include areas like policing and justice, or indeed gender recognition, where senior Labour Party figures at Westminster have expressed opposition or scepticism, and they weren't included in the Brown commission report? Who will have the final say? Will the decision be made in Wales, to quote you from earlier, or will it be made in Westminster, and, if it's the latter, aren't you devolving the rulebook while leaving the power where it has always been?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I was able to discuss with Keir Starmer the work of the McAllister-Williams review. He referred to it specifically in the speech that he made to the Labour Party conference, and I was very heartened by the fact that he is determined to show proper respect to the work of that Welsh commission, and to await its recommendations before taking decisions on policies that will enter the Labour manifesto. That's very good news for Wales, particularly given the calibre of the work that the Williams-McAllister commission is undertaking.
The policies of the Welsh Labour Government are unchanged in relation both to justice and gender recognition. We believe that the Thomas review concluded, in any sensible sense, the argument in favour of devolution of justice to Wales. The authoritative nature of its analysis and recommendations we believe mean that that case is made, and we'll continue to advocate for that.
Implementation of that policy has to start somewhere, and the Gordon Brown report suggests that it should start with youth justice and with probation, and those would be very, very important first steps. First steps are often the most difficult steps of all on a journey, and, in relation to gender recognition, we continue to pursue now, with the current UK Government, the devolution of those powers here to Wales. There is no reason why powers that we seek under one set of circumstances would not be powers that we would continue to seek in others.
The way that decisions are finally made in a Labour Party manifesto, which covers the whole of the United Kingdom and will have many, many competing priorities for an incoming first-term Labour Government, are well known. There will be Welsh voices in the room when that manifesto process is being undertaken, and they will be arguing for the sorts of policies that the leader of Plaid Cymru has rehearsed this afternoon.

Modern Sporting Facilities

James Evans MS: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to deliver modern sporting facilities in Brecon and Radnorshire? OQ59252

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, using funding provided by the Welsh Government, Sport Wales will support 20 projects across Powys in the current financial year through the Be Active Wales fund. This is in addition to capital projects such as the new pump track near Talybont-on-Usk and resurfacing the athletics track at Brecon Leisure Centre.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank you, First Minister, for your answer. Earlier this year, the UK Government announced £12.6 million investment in grass-roots facilities in Wales, with individual projects of investment directed by the Football Association of Wales. I'm here today to bang the drum for more investment in Brecon and Radnorshire. Mid Wales has missed out on much-needed cash in Welsh Government funding streams for sporting facilities. Powys ranked in the bottom half of all Welsh local authorities, and mostly that is due to population numbers. But I am not just here to criticise, because I do have a solution where that money could potentially be spent. Rhayader in my constituency is in much need of a facility upgrade, to give them that high-quality pitch that can produce the Wales sports stars of the future. So, First Minister, I know that you don't have any direct influence over that money, but your presence—. If you would say on the record that the FAW should look seriously at Rhayader's proposals, I'm very sure that your influence would go a long way in making sure that we can get that much-needed investment in Brecon and Radnorshire.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the very best way, Llywydd, would be if the UK Government had not used the internal market Act powers directly to fund the FAW. That is money that should be here in Wales, being decided here in Wales. Then, I would be able to help the Member a lot more directly.
You will remember the debates in the House of Commons—and particularly in the House of Lords—when UK Government Ministers were put up to explain that the internal market Act powers were necessary only to intervene in the most serious matters, where there were profoundly important economic decisions at stake, and that was why they were being taken. Well, within a few months, they were being used not only to fund the FAW to deal with football pitches in Wales, but the UK Government has taken into its own hands the future of the Welsh tennis court as well. Now, there's a matter of profound economic significance. What it tells you is that the internal market Act was never intended in the way that those Ministers were put up to suggest. It was always designed for the UK Government to be able to act in that pet-project-type way, taking decisions and funding away from Wales.
Two pieces of good news, though, for James Evans: first of all, the Be Active Wales fund will be open again in April, and given that 20 different projects are being funded in the Member's constituency in the current financial year, I think that will be good news, I hope, for those projects in Powys. And as to the particular scheme that the Member has mentioned this afternoon, I'm quite certain it will be taken seriously by the FAW and that, provided it can bring itself within the criteria of the scheme, and I'm sure people will work hard to do that, I'm quite certain the FAWwill give it proper and serious consideration.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. I just really wanted to follow on from James Evans's question around sporting facilities and concentrate on swimming pools. Many of us, I'm sure, learnt to swim in swimming pools, literally giving us a life-saving skill, and we know that swimming pools are essential for mental health, physical health and particularly for people with disabilities. At this stage, we understand there's no action from the UK Conservative Government to help with bills for non-residential properties, so I just wondered what the Welsh Government could do to help local authorities who are really struggling with bills to heat our swimming pools, potentially picking up from I think it's Devon County Council and their innovation around a digital boiler, whether there are options there for us to consider innovative ways of ensuring that our swimming pools, particularly in rural areas like Powys, remain open. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jane Dodds for that. I know that the leisure sector, not just in Wales, but across the border as well, is disappointed that swimming pools have been excluded for help under the UK Government's new energy bill discount scheme. If you're running a museum, you will get help from that scheme, but if you're running an energy-intensive place like a leisure centre, and particularly a swimming pool, then you won't be getting any help at all. That seems perverse, doesn't it, given that we know that the most expensive part of any leisure centre is the swimming pool itself. So, we will hope to see in tomorrow's spring statement some sensible change in that direction, so that leisure centres and the local authorities who support them will be able to cover those costs in that way.
The Devon example is an interesting one, isn't it, because it solves the problem in a different way. It doesn't just seek to pay the higher bills, it seeks to find new sources of energy that can be used. There are many, many examples here in Wales where you have industries that create a great deal of heat, where that heat is simply dispersed into the air, and where, if the geographical proximity was good enough, you could try to reuse that heat in a way that provides not just for swimming pools, but in district heating schemes and so on. A great deal of thought is being given in many parts of Wales to exactly that sort of innovative and experimental way of finding better ways of being able to heat those very important local facilities into the future.

Renewable Energy Industry

Samuel Kurtz MS: 4. How is the Welsh Government supporting the renewable energy industry? OQ59277

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for that. Supporting the supply chain, co-ordinating investment in grids and ports infrastructure and setting up a publicly owned renewable developer are some of the actions we are taking to support the renewable energy industry in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Yesterday, I had the pleasure of attending a round-table with the south Wales industrial cluster as they launched their decarbonisation plan. While at the meeting, I was delighted to be shown a tweet from your Twitter account, First Minister, celebrating consent being given for Blue Gem Wind's Erebus project off the south Pembrokeshire coast. Floating offshore wind, this joint venture between Total and Simply Blue Energy, will firmly set Wales on a path to net zero.
At the same round-table discussion, it was said that a Celtic free port would turbocharge the industry's journey to net zero while also securing and generating thousands of extra jobs. But with an announcement due imminently, I do wish to pivot and focus slightly elsewhere.
So, to achieve our net-zero ambition, industry must deploy the use of blue hydrogen in a limited and short-term manner. It is through optimising blue hydrogen creation that we can provide the industry with a critical stepping stone towards net zero, and without it, we risk failure. So, given this, what assurances can the Welsh Government give stakeholders that blue hydrogen as a transition is a route to net zero that this Government is willing to support? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Sam Kurtz for those further questions. I thank him for drawing attention to the fact that the Erebus windfarm application has been approved now through all the processes here in Wales. It's a very important development and one that demonstrates that we have been able to use the streamlined and effective application process we now have in Wales to reach that outcome, while at the same time making sure that there are proper and robust protections for that very fragile environment that is the sea that surrounds us.
I won’t say anything on the free port; the Member was quite right about that, Llywydd.
As far as blue hydrogen and green hydrogen are concerned, we want to get a position where green hydrogen is deployable here in Wales on the scale we will need it for the future. Do we see any part for blue hydrogen in that transition way? Well, we do. But we want it to be as limited as it can be, and very clearly in the stepping-stone way that Sam Kurtz has set out this afternoon. It does have a part to play, but it’s not the destination we need to be at.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: First Minister, if a local authority who have their pensions funds invested in a particular energy generation company were to receive a request from that company for a development in their area, do you feel that there would be a conflict of interest in such a scenario? Because clearly, if there were a proposal, a project or infrastructure where the local authority is part of the decision for that to go ahead, that would bring benefit to the pension funds of that local authority. Is there a risk to the impartiality of that process in your view?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I haven’t had an opportunity to grasp that specific point that Llyr Gruffydd has made, Llywydd, so I’d better look at what is in the Record this afternoon. We do want to—. I’ve had a meeting with Jack Sargeant just a few weeks ago to look at how we can enable local authorities with their pension funds to invest in those things that are going to be part of the long-term response here in Wales.
So, in general, I think that it is something important to draw those funds into the infrastructure and other things, such as renewable energy. But, on the specific point, I’d better look again at what the Member said and come back to him.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I too was at the south Wales industrial cluster meeting that was held in the Millennium Stadium in my constituency, and a really interesting meeting it was, with lots of really important people there.
However, I want to just ask about a slightly different route to achieving net zero, which is the increasing demand for renewable energy in our homes. Forty per cent of houses in Wales are owned outright, with no mortgage, either by the people who live in them or by landlords who rent them out. So, what strategy is the Government using to appeal to them to invest in renewables now, to do the right thing for the climate, fix the holes in their pockets, and increase the value of their properties? What’s not to like as a way of kick starting demand for retrofitting measures in the private housing sector?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I certainly agree with the general point that Jenny Rathbone is making. She will know that it is a confusing picture that faces the individual householder in this area, because there is an ongoing and sometimes a rather polarised debate on what the future of domestic heating should be. On the one hand, there are experiments going on and we’re working with the UK Government on that, about the role that hydrogen might play in that, and yet there is also evidence that suggests that hydrogen won’t have a widespread use in domestic heating, and that debate is holding up some decisions on the gas grid and on electrification. What I think is clear is that we will need—and we are funding, indeed, as a Government—local area energy plans that will go down to an assessment at a street by street level, so that there will be better information for householders on which heat solutions will work best for them.
There'll be areas where heat pumps are the answer, and some areas in which it may—and I think it's definitely a question mark, but may—be that hybrid solutions closest to sources of hydrogen may also have a part to play. The Minister intends to publish the consultation on a heat strategy, which will draw on all of this and seek to help resolve some of those debates so that, when the individual consumer has a clearer idea of what they can do in the most effective way in their particular property, they will have a less confused policy background to draw on and then can get on and make the investments to which Jenny Rathbone has referred.

Ambulances Waiting Times

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. What is the Government doing to limit the time that ambulances are forced to wait in queues outside hospitals? OQ59276

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we've provided additional funding, established a national improvement programme and increased staffing in the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust. Where health boards take concerted, whole-system action, clear results are already being seen in reducing ambulance waiting times outside hospitals.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that.

Delyth Jewell AC: After waiting for an ambulance for hours, when people get to hospital, there are often no spare beds, leaving them waiting outside for more hours. One constituent of mine's elderly mother was recently held in an ambulance for 15 hours after she suffered a fall. I am concerned that ambulances are effectively being used as waiting rooms. I want to ask you specifically, though, about the impact that so many ambulances waiting with their engines running is having on air pollution levels outside our hospitals, areas where people are already desperately poorly and are now breathing in polluted air.
Last month, I know the health Minister announced that there would be charging points outside each emergency department. BMA Cymru have welcomed that scheme, but there isn't much detail yet about where the funding will come from and when, and also on upgrading ambulances to electric vehicles. Could you give more detail on that, please, and could you also say how the Government will monitor air quality outside hospitals in the meantime, because if ambulances are being used as waiting rooms, we shouldn't be keeping patients waiting in environments that will make them more unwell?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the fundamental answer is not to have ambulances waiting in that way, and while the position in the health service continues to be very challenging, there is some good news in this area. By taking the whole-system approach to which I referred in my original answer, Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, working with the ambulance service, achieved a 50 per cent reduction in the number of ambulance hours lost to handover at the University Hospital of Wales between January of this year and January of last year. And the lessons that are there to learn from that successful experiment are now being spread to other parts of Wales.So, Delyth Jewell will be, I know, interested in what happens in south-east Wales and, since the start of this month, a new safe-flow model has been in place at the Grange University Hospital, drawing very much on the work that has proved successful at UHW.
The way to improve air quality is not to have ambulances waiting to the extent that they have been. Where they do have to wait, they should be electric vehicles, not petrol vehicles, and that's why the Minister announced that we will be improving the infrastructure at the hospital front door, so that it is easier for ambulances to operate in that way. There is already very significant investment by the Welsh Government in improving the Welsh ambulance service fleet in that way. The money for the charging points will come from the Minister's own budget, and she has identified that, and I'm sure that there will be further information that she will be able to share with Members as that plan develops.

Russell George AC: I notice that England and Wales had very similar ambulance response times to the most serious emergencies in January. But I noted that ambulances in England are 20 minutes faster at reaching their category 2 patients than those in Wales are at reaching amber patient calls. I listened to your answer to Delyth Jewell, and it's quite right to learn lessons from certain part of Wales where there is good experience and replicate that in other parts of Wales, looking for where best practice is. But I wonder what best practice the Welsh Government is planning to lift from NHS England to reach those patients faster, particularly in relation to the delayed transfers of care, of course.

Mark Drakeford AC: My starting point, Llywydd, is always that where there are lessons to be learnt, inside or outside Wales, then of course we would want to learn them. From my long experience of these sorts of discussions—and I don't have this in front of me—what I would suspect would be that there will be different definitions of what is captured by a category 2 response, so we're counting different things, and of course we're counting them on a different geography as well, because a higher a proportion of Wales will be classified as rural areas, with the challenges that come, compared to across the border.
But I can assure the Member that the people who work in our ambulance services are always in contact with people who run ambulance services in England, partly because it is a porous border. The Minister herself is committed to doing that, and the learning is in both directions. We were the first part of the United Kingdom to agree on the current way in which ambulance service performance is measured. That was then subsequently adopted in England. And that's because there is a dialogue, always, between professional workers and officials hoping to see where there are things that can be learnt from one another.

Unpaid Carers Charter

Peter Fox AS: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the delivery of the unpaid carers charter? OQ59273

Mark Drakeford AC: The first annual report on implementation of the unpaid carers strategy, including the charter, is published today. It covers a range of practical actions—the short breaks scheme and the carers support grant, for example—to support unpaid carers.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, First Minister, for that. The right of an assessment for unpaid carers to find out what support they need, if any, is a key principle of the charter of unpaid carers. Research from the Motor Neurone Disease Association has now shown that one in four MND carers across Wales had either received a carers assessment or were in the process of having one. These assessments are absolutely crucial for assessing a range of support, and it goes without saying that our unpaid MND carers, and indeed all carers, are absolutely doing an incredible job. I just wondered, First Minister, what steps is the Government taking to ensure that all unpaid carers have access to those assessments?

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with Peter Fox that the right established in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 that unpaid carers are entitled to an assessment—it's a legal right that they have and it's not something that is a grace and favour of anybody else—is a really important right that was established in this Senedd. The strategy and the funding that lies behind it is there to make sure that that right can be a reality. There are a number of different ways in which we can advance that agenda. The unpaid carers register, to which we are committed, will make sure that, in future, we have a more direct way of informing unpaid carers in Wales of the rights that they have, to give them advice as to how they can make those rights a reality. There is work going on at the moment to see how we can use some existing sources of data to populate an unpaid carers register. But the real key to it will be when we are able to have self-registration. We're not quite there yet, but we are hopeful that some of the technical problems that have to be solved before people will be able to put their own names on the register and then get that information flow and make those rights a reality—. Our hope is that we will be able to achieve that during the next calendar year.

Mesh in Operations

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. How is the Government ensuring medical professionals understand the difficulties many patients face following the use of mesh in operations? OQ59241

Mark Drakeford AC: Health boards must use National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance on the use of mesh to provide suitable treatment options for patients. Care plans should reflect informed choices, co-produced between clinicians and patients.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the First Minister for his answer? I've been contacted by the inspirational campaigner and constituent of mine Maxine Cooper, who lives in Connah's Quay. Maxine's story is that she was left disabled following surgical mesh being implanted, and since then she has worked tirelessly to raise the profile of people who have suffered, and also to support others. First Minister, I fully support Maxine in her work to empower those who have suffered with mesh to have their voices heard, and this includes training for front-line medical professionals. Can I ask the First Minister what thought the Welsh Government has given to people like Maxine being able to inform these professionals through their training processes?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for his continuing interest in this topic. I know that he has previously referred to the work of his constituent and the campaigning work that she has undertaken, and that he received assurances from the then health Minister that we expect, and indeed have seen, a significant reduction in the number of vaginal mesh procedures being carried out in Wales. While there is not a total ban on it, those procedures only proceed when there is a clear and properly informed choice being made by the patient. That's where the points that Jack Sargeant has made this afternoon are so important, Llywydd—that we have to be as clear as we can be with our clinicians that these decisions have to be joint decisions driven by the informed choices that women themselves make.
In order to bring that about, we've been doing two things since Jack asked his previous questions on these matters. First is to make sure that there are new training opportunities for those with the necessary clinical expertise, and to make sure as well that there is a properly multidisciplinary team approach to implementing those NICE guidelines. So, we're making sure that the clinical community is better informed, and we have been working closely with service users and patient representatives, which includes the Welsh Mesh Survivors group and Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales. The Minister plans to publish a women's health strategy for Wales, and that strategy will capture, on a broader basis, those very important principles of making sure that the voice of the patient, informed and authoritative, drives the decisions that are being made alongside them.

NHS Dentistry in Clwyd West

Darren Millar AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to NHS dentistry in Clwyd West? OQ59250

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Darren Millar for that, Llywydd. Contract reform, financial incentives, additional investment and diversification of the profession are amongst the actions being taken to improve access for the Member's constituents.

Darren Millar AC: I appreciate that answer. I know there's a statement on this matter later on, but 16 years ago when I first became a Member of the Senedd, people were able to access two NHS check-ups a year, and most people in my constituency were able top register with a local NHS dentist without any issues. Sixteen years on, NHS dentistry, particularly in north Wales, appears to be falling off a cliff. I hear the same sorts of concerns raised by other people in this Chamber too. We've now gone down to a system whereby most people can only access a check-up every 12 months and, in addition to that, when people move home, they're not able to register with a local NHS dentist. I have constituents having to go to Scotland in order to receive their NHS dental treatment because they cannot register in my constituency. There's one single practice in my constituency that allows people to add their names to a list to register for NHS dentistry, and you will be waiting for two years in order to get off that list and into that dental practice. I appreciate that you're trying to take action, but I'm afraid it's not quick enough, and it's clearly not having the impact that people need it to have. So, can I ask you, on behalf of my constituents in Conwy and Denbighshire, when will they be able to get the sort of NHS care from a dentist that they need?

Mark Drakeford AC: One of the ways in which constituents in the Member's constituency will get that service is when dentists in a thoroughgoing way deliver NICE guidance. The NICE requirement since 2004 is that people should never be called back twice a year for a check-up when there's no clinical reason for doing so. NICE guidelines said all the way back then that a two-year call-back was sufficient for very many patients.
What the new contract does is it substitutes the calling back of people for routine check-ups when there's no clinical case for doing so with services for new patients. While I appreciate that it's still challenging in some parts of Wales for patients to be able to register, actually, Betsi Cadwaladr has the highest number of new patients seen in the last 10 months of any health board in Wales. Across the health board, in the first 10 months of the new contract, over 26,600 new patients have been seen in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board. That is partly assisted, of course, by the new dental academy at Bangor, which, by this autumn, when it is fully operating, will be offering appointments to up to 15,000 new patients in that part of Wales.
What we need to do is recognise the very hard work that our dental contractors do in all parts of Wales. We need to work alongside them to implement the new contract, to make sure that the metrics we're using draw on the experience of the first year to get those metrics right, but that the metrics are properly focused not on handle-turning work, which is the way the old units of dental activity contract drove people to carry out their practice, but properly clinically stratified work. People who need to be seen more regularly should be seen more regularly; those people who do not need to be seen every six months certainly should not be being called back on that basis. That will free up more time for new patients to be seen. We're seeing that happen already. There's more we can do in that way, and that will help residents of the Member's constituency.

Thank you very much to the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item will be the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are two changes to this week's business. The legislative consent debate on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill has been postponed until next week. Similarly, the debate on the Packaging Waste (Data Collection and Reporting) (Wales) Regulations 2023 has also been postponed. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Can I ask you, Trefnydd, for a statement from yourself in your capacity as rural affairs Minister in relation to squirrelpox? There are huge problems with squirrelpox; it's affecting many red squirrels, our native squirrels, in Scotland, and I'm very concerned that we must do everything we can in order to prevent outbreaks here. There was an outbreak, of course, on Ynys Môn just a few years ago in 2020 and 2021, and 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the red squirrel population was wiped out. There is currently a petition that has been laid before the Petitions Committee in the Senedd. Some 8,000 people have signed that petition calling for the Welsh Government to release some resources to be able to invest in the development of a squirrelpox vaccine. We know that we have some excellent researchers here in Wales who could help to achieve that aim, which would be a huge move forward for our native red squirrels. So, can I ask you, as the red squirrel champion in this Senedd, will the Welsh Government take some action on that front, and will a statement be forthcoming soon?

Lesley Griffiths AC: We will certainly be taking action, and we've continued to take action since the outbreak on Ynys Môn that you referred to. I think at that time we did put forward a small pot of money to see what could be learnt from it. Obviously, I'll await the outcome of the petition—clearly, a significant number of people have signed it—and whether that will come forward for a debate. But it's also on the list of—. You'll be aware that the new chief veterinary officer, Richard Irvine, started yesterday. I met him briefly, but we're going to have a look at a lot of specific issues. Obviously, he's bringing different expertise to the role as well, but it is certainly something we'll look at.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to call for a statement, please, from the Government recommitting Wales's stance on welcoming refugees. The ugly and dangerous rhetoric that's been used in Westminster about stopping the routes that desperate people are being forced into using because boats across the channel are the only option available to them when all of the legal routes available have been removed—they've been cut off—is damaging Wales's international reputation by association. I would put on record my disappointment that some Conservative MPs, and some Labour MPs as well, have shared posts online with language that treats refugees as a problem to be solved rather than people to be helped.
Now, we in Wales, we are proud of being a nation of sanctuary. Could a statement please set out what the Government here can do to counteract the damage being done to our standing on the international stage? Because, surely, isn't it time that we stop letting Wales be tarnished by association with the cruelty and the callousness that's coming out of the Home Office.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, we're very proud to be a nation of sanctuary, and, as you're aware, the Minister for Social Justice has written to the Minister for immigration to state unequivocally that we oppose the legal migration Bill, and that, of course, a legislative consent memorandum is likely to be required. And the Minister also noted the UN Refugees Agency's assessment that the Bill would breach the refugee convention, and, of course, the Home Secretary herself could not assure anyone that it was compliant with the human rights convention.
So, the Minister for Social Justice is working very closely on this issue. I think we all have to be very careful, don't we, about the language that we use, and, again, you will have heard UK Ministers claim that they've tried everything else, so this Bill is now necessary. We believe that simply to be untrue.

Mike Hedges AC: I would like to ask for a Government statement on co-operative housing. Co-operative housing is popular in places as diverse as Scandinavia and New York, but has failed to become a standard form of accommodation in Wales. It's not accommodation only for poor people; John Lennon lived in the Dakota building, which was co-operative housing. The development agency, Cwmpas, the country's co-op, and the community-led housing sector were supported in 2022 to increase the number of housing co-operative properties in Wales. Can I request an update on progress?
I would also like to ask for a statement on cladding issues to include support for developments where the developer no longer exists, a date when the pact is expected to be signed, and when remediation to properties such as Altamar are expected to start.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. On your second question regarding cladding, the Minister for Climate Change will certainly be making an announcement in the very near future regarding that, and the date that the pact will be signed.
I think you make a very important point about co-operative housing. Co-operative housing itself is very important, and I didn't know that about John Lennon, so that's something I've learnt today. We do know that one of the best ways to increase provision is to provide support to those who are interested in co-operative or community-led housing. And we have funding through Cwmpas—you referred to Cwmpas, which was, obviously, formerly the Wales Co-operative Centre. That is absolutely designed to deliver that support, and I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is providing £180,000 this year, and for the next two years, to support community-led housing groups in Wales.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm asking for a statement from the Minister for finance about changes to council tax premiums from 1 April, and, specifically, the exemptions to the proposed 300 per cent council tax levy on empty properties and second homes. While councils will have a wide discretionary power to decide whether to charge a premium, the consultation that the Welsh Government carried out on this issue showed that the majority of respondents wanted to have more exemptions than listed. In particular, this included an exemption for registered charities that provide respite for carers. Respondents didn't want this to be a discretionary power for local authorities.
Now, despite discussions with the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to consider exemptions in these cases, there's been very little movement in this area. As outlined by the finance Minister in a written statement on the consultation, the only change made to the draft legislation was to ensure that properties that don't have a period of time specified in their holiday let planning condition are exempted from paying the premium.
Trefnydd, this is perhaps a matter that may have been overlooked by the finance Minister, but these providers support a valuable and vital service. So, what discussions has the finance Minister had with other Welsh Government Ministers and stakeholders about these exemptions? What reasoning lays behind her decision not to extend them? Has the finance Minister been reassured by local authorities that they will not use their discretionary powers to tax those who provide respite care at a 300 per cent premium? And, most importantly, what analysis has been carried out to reach this decision? An update to the Chamber, and the opportunity to discuss and debate these issues further would be appreciated.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I think, with respect, you're asking the wrong Minister those questions. I think it would be best for you to write to the Minister for finance. I hear what you say about a statement, but you asked a series of questions there that I, obviously, can't possibly answer. I'm aware that the Minister did update us—I think, in an oral statement, but it might have been a written statement—if there is anything outside of that statement that hasn't been answered, I will ask her to bring forward a written statement.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to request two statements, please. Firstly, I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for health, responding to the recently published report by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and theirreview of patients being discharged from mental health wards in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board. Significant risks were highlighted, and they are ongoing, and I'd like to seek assurances from the Minister that she and her officials are monitoring the situation and supporting the health board to put in place the improvements needed.
Secondly, as you will be aware, the discharge of human waste into our rivers and seas is a major issue. And last week in Pontypridd, we saw huge amounts of raw sewage pumping into the river Taf, after a pipe broke. Many Members have raised issues about this matter in the Senedd, and, as we remember, the Minister for Climate Change gave a statement about water quality to the Senedd last November. I'd like to request a statement from the Minister, updating the Senedd on any discussions that have subsequently taken place with water companies regarding this issue, as she stated that another summit on river pollution was due to be held in February 2023.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to the HIW review of the quality of discharge arrangements from adult in-patient mental health units in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area, I can assure you that the NHS delivery unit is providing support to the health board, and the Minister for Health and Social Services's officials are monitoring progress through our targeted intervention arrangements with the health board. And of course, the Minister expects the health board to prioritise a plan of work to implement the recommendations from the report you've referred to in response to the findings of the review.
Regarding your second issue, I am aware that the pipe has now been repaired. The Minister for Climate Change meets regularly with the water companies for a variety of discussions. The second phosphate summit was actually held last Wednesday—it was delayed from February. It was chaired by the First Minister, and myself and the Minister for Climate Change were there, and, obviously, the health boards were represented too—sorry, the water boards, sorry, the water companies were represented too. I'm showing my age. [Laughter.]

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd just like to associate myself with the concerns expressed by Heledd Fychan. Because I read today that sewage is being discharged into the river Taf, and who wants to have a toilet being developed just outside our building? So, this is a really serious concern, which we need to pursue elsewhere.
Trefnydd, I wonder if we can have an update on the discussions that supermarket bosses were due to have with the the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister, Mark Spencer, which you mentioned last week, on how we improve the shortage of vegetable and fruit supplies to feed our nation. What, if anything, did you learn from the inter-ministerial meeting I think you were hosting last week? In particular, I want to explore how it is possible that Kent growers of fruit are having to grub up their orchards, as we speak, because the supermarkets are refusing to pay them enough to even cover their costs, never mind make a profit to keep the business sustainable. And in your role as Minister for rural affairs, how are we going to use the Agriculture (Wales) Bill to make sure that this sort of open robbery is not happening in our country?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, I can't remember where I was when I referred to this, but I certainly did refer to the meeting that the Minister for food and farming in the UK Government held with supermarkets. I obviously meet with retailers, with processors and with farmers around food supply, but the Minister in the UK Government held a sort of supermarket summit, which, unfortunately, he didn't invite devolved administration Ministers to, which I think was a shame. So I raised this with him at the inter-ministerial group, as you say, and he basically said that supermarkets weren't to blame. I tried to explain about the contracts, because I think that point is very important. Now, I don't know what's going on in Kent, but I think you do raise a very important point—that we need to make sure that those contracts are absolutely fair. And it was very interesting at the time, when we were seeing shortages of fruit and vegetables in our supermarkets that we weren't seeing that in the greengrocers.
In relation to your question around the agriculture Bill, obviously, that sets sustainable land management as a framework for our future agricultural policy, and we're obviously approaching Stage 2 of the agriculture Bill next week. And what we can do to help is, obviously, any future farming policy and support will reward farmers for, obviously, not just addressing the climate and nature emergencies, but also for that sustainable food production.

James Evans MS: Minister, could I request a statement, please, from the Minister for Economy on what work the Welsh Government is doing to help our pubs during this extremely difficult time for them? I've had a number of pubs close in my constituency, which is a real great shame for those families who are involved in that. I know that a lot of the levers sit with the UK Government, but I think it would be very interesting to hear what the Welsh Government are doing to support our pubs and hospitality industry during the cost-of-living crisis.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Minister for Economy and myself met with quite a few representatives from the pub industry, actually, at Brains brewery, not that long ago, probably about just before Christmas—a couple of months ago—to discuss what we could do as a Government to support. You'll be aware that we've got various schemes and levels of support as well. You are right: the UK Government do hold a lot of those levers, and I'm sure that the Minister for Economy is having discussions with his counterparts in the UK Government on this issue as well.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for a statement from the Minister for health, please, with regard to tenancy assurance for partnerships of GPs? This follows the announcement that a Porthmadog landlord has put forward a planning application to turn the building into flats, which means that the surgery will have to possibly close, because there's nowhere else for it to be located in the town at the moment. It appears strange to me that such an important service as a GP surgery is going to be thrown out without any certainty, which will cause a great deal of concern to patients. I would be grateful to have a statement on this situation, please.
Secondly, may I have a statement from you as Minister for rural Wales with regard to the phosphates summit that you held? Can we have an update—an urgent update—on that, please?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The update on the phosphates summit will come via a written statement from the First Minister, and not from myself. In relation to your question regarding the GP surgery in your constituency, I would think, as it's such a specific issue, it would be best for you to write to the Minister for health directly.

Joyce Watson AC: I would like two statements, the first being on the Welsh Government's response to the National Police Chiefs' Council—NPCC—report released today, that said that nine out of 10 complaints about violence against women and girls by police officers in England and Wales were dropped over a six-month period. But, of the resolved cases, only 13 of those officers were sacked, according to the data from the National Police Chiefs' Council, and two thirds of the public complaints were categorised as use of force. In these cases, complaints from women were regarding the use of force when being handcuffed, and some of those were complaints of sexual assault. We clearly can't go on like this, Minister. Something has to be done.
The second statement from Welsh Government that I would like is about what discussions, if any, you've had with the UK Government regarding Boris Johnson nominating his father, Stanley Johnson, for a knighthood. It's alleged that Stanley Johnson punched his ex-wife, the late Charlotte Wahl, so hard during their first marriage that he broke her nose. It's reported that supporters have said that it was a 'one-off', as if that is okay. Charlotte Wahl, on the other hand, has said that he hit her many times and described their marriage as 'ghastly', 'terrible'. What concerns me and most people is the message that the proposed knighthood could give to other perpetrators of domestic abuse that it's okay to abuse your spouse, and to the victims and their families that what they are being subjected to is acceptable, perhaps even trivial. This risks setting the agenda backwards, while this Government and Members here are trying to move the agenda forward.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I know that the Minister for Social Justice is very aware that the new data from the National Police Chiefs' Council does highlight what you stated, Joyce Watson—that nine in 10 complaints from members of the public led to no action being taken against police officers and staff who'd been accused of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence,and that data was based around March of 2022, and it was a period of around six months. Obviously, policing is a reserved issue and the responsibility of the UK Government, but, as you know, as a Government, and certainly the Minister for Social Justice, takes the issue of police conduct very seriously, especially as violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence is of course a devolved matter here and one where we work very closely with our police colleagues. The Minister for Social Justice chaired the Policing Partnership Board for Wales just before Christmas and, there, the issue of trust in policing was discussed, and it was actually agreed it's such an important matter that it would be a standing item on every agenda of that partnership board.
In relation to your second point, as you say, as a Government, we are very committed to taking action to tackle domestic abuse. We have the Live Fear Free helpline—that's available to anyone needing to talk to someone about violence against women, domestic abuse or sexual violence. I'm not aware of any specific discussions regarding the honour that you just referred to. Again, the whole honours policy and process is completely a reserved matter and the responsibility of the UK Cabinet Office, but, again, I'm sure the Minister for Social Justice, if she has had any discussions, will update the Member, but I'm not aware of any.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Two statements, please. I'd like to declare an interest on the first one, as this affects a relative, however, it's also affecting a large number of my constituents. So, I wish to request a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services on pre-operative assessments. Earlier this month, the Betsi board wrote to me, stating, 'Colleagues have confirmed that once a patient has passed the POAC, the health board aims to schedule them for surgery within 16 weeks of the date of the POAC.' Now, this has increased, to my knowledge—I think the Minister is almost agreeing there—because it used to be six weeks, whereas now, four months is considerably longer than it used to be. The Betsi board website has some information on pre-operative assessment, but I haven't been able to locate any public information on their timescales for such assessments, or, indeed, how the medical guidance influences these. The Centre for Perioperative Care published guidelines in June 2021 state that:
'All perioperative services should have a system for active clinical surveillance of patients on waiting lists, particularly those who have been on lists for longer than 3 months for P3 or P4 surgery.'
So, I am very concerned that the Betsi board has extended the timescales to up to 16 weeks at a time when there is no clear all-Wales standard. So, in the interest of patient safety, I would be grateful if a statement could be made.
Oh, and then—

No, that's okay. You're already well over time, and I—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The second one—

Yes. You can do that next week, Janet. You're well over time.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I wasn't aware of the change from six weeks to 16 weeks and, as you say, I would've thought there would be an all-Wales standard. So, I will certainly ask the health Minister to look at what you've just come forward with, because I do think there would need to be an explanation if it had gone from six weeks to 16 weeks for pre-operative assessments, because, obviously, if somebody has a pre-operative assessment, then their health could change considerably in that length of time. I'm not aware if there is an all-Wales standard, but I would've thought there would be, so I will certainly ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to have a look at that.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I would like to ask for a statement from the economy Minister, giving clarification about the process that will be followed—imminently, hopefully—for announcing the granting of free-port status to a port or ports in Wales, a decision made jointly, of course, by UK and Welsh Governments. And I'd like to place on record, again, my gratitude to Anglesey council and Stena for putting together a very, very strong bid that has the interests of the people of Anglesey at its heart. And it hasn't been an easy process getting to this point—the fighting for equal funding status with England; £26 million for an English free port and £8 million for Wales didn't seem fair—but I'm grateful to Welsh Government for making that case to UK Government, and for asking for those assurances around workers' rights and environmental regulations. And there'll still need to be an awful lot of monitoring, but, with those assurances in place, we had the firm foundations on which a solid bid could be built. We can, hopefully, with the status, move forward to building on our status as a trading island. This is a community-made bid to help a community that has suffered blow after blow from the closure of Anglesey Aluminum and Rehau and the Brexit effect of recent years and, of course, the devastating recent announcement around the Two Sisters plant in Llangefni. So, clarity would be most welcome.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Obviously, this will be a decision for the Minister for Economy, who will update Senedd Members with a statement in due course.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Empty Homes

Joyce Watson AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government actions to bring empty homes back into use? OQ59269

Julie James AC: We have a number of initiatives that provide both practical and financial support to bring empty homes back into use. In January, I announced a £50 million national empty homes grant scheme, which is now open for applications, to further add to these measures.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Minister, and I'm delighted that all of the local authorities in my region will be taking part in this scheme, and Gwynedd already accepting applications. It's desperately needed. Can I ask, have you had an opportunity to read the latest report from the Bevan Foundation on the private rental market in Wales finding that only 32 properties advertised across Wales were available at local housing allowance rates, and 1.2 per cent of the rental market was available at local housing allowance rates, and 16 local authorities do not have a single property available at local housing allowance rates? So, this is clearly needed to bring those properties back into the market, and I suppose you're looking forward, as I am and others are, in tomorrow's budget that will match our investment into affordable housing so that we can deliver for those communities that we all serve?

Julie James AC: Yes. Thank you very much, Joyce Watson, for that very timely question. As I know you know, Joyce, empty homes are a complete blight and nuisance on our communities. They attract anti-social behaviour, they impose environmental health problems, they contribute to a general sense of decline in the neighbourhood, and a sense that, perhaps, nobody really cares about this particular street or this particular little neighbourhood. And that's very frustrating indeed when housing is in such short supply as well. It's a real shame and another symptom of our completely dysfunctional housing market that this is allowed to happen.
So, as I said, we have allocated £50 million over the next two years to bring up to 2,000 long-term empty properties across Wales back into use through our national empty homes grant scheme. And, just to say, although there are varying numbers—around 22,000, for example, of empty homes—it's actually quite difficult to distinguish between those homes that are, for example, being marketed for sale or empty for other reasons, people in long term—. You know, there's a variety of things. So, we've got a very specific grant for homes that are empty and require refurbishment to come back into beneficial use, and that complements our existing scheme, including Leasing Scheme Wales.
I am absolutely aware of the Bevan report that highlights a growing gap between LHA rates and market rents of private housing in Wales. As you know, the LHA isn't devolved—would that it were. I've repeatedly written to the UK Government calling for urgent and immediate action to address this, and just again saying to colleagues opposite, who I know are not heartless, this is now below—[Interruption.] This is below the poor law. This is below where the poor law was. It's just not acceptable that you cannot find a single property in 16 areas across Wales at local housing allowance rates. This really does need to be addressed. It's a really big problem. It's not a political point; it's a really big problem. And it doesn't make any economic sense. Because of the cost of homelessness to local authorities when people can't stay in the private rented sector because the LHA has been frozen in this unprecedented time of inflation and increasing rents, the amount of money going out of the public purse at local authority level is far more than the amount that would go in at local housing allowance level. So, it's baffling to me why the rate is frozen—it genuinely is baffling to me—and I really, really call on the UK Government to review that situation, because it's heartless and it's causing proper misery. It's also preventing us from helping really good landlords who want to do this scheme with us from coming into the scheme, because now the LHA rates are so low that it's becoming not worth their while to do.
So, just to explain what we do, the local housing allowance rate is what we pay to landlords who come into the scheme. It’s still worth while, and landlords should still look at it, because it guarantees that income every single week, every single month, and you don’t have to put up with voids and turnovers and a percentage going to management properties and so on. So, it’s still very much worth looking at, but the lower the LHA rate goes, the worse it is to try and market it on that point. We have made positive progress. A number of local authorities that have exceeded their initial targets for year 1. It’s positive news that Newport has just expressed an interest as the sixteenth local authority to join the scheme. But an increase in the LHA rate to the proper level would really help.

James Evans MS: Minister, we do have a heart over here, and we do hear what you say, but it is the job of the Welsh Government. Housing is a wholly devolved matter and, as my colleagues have said, 22,000 homes are empty across Wales. So, we think it’s about time that the Welsh Government had a new, refreshed strategy on how they’re going to bring those empty homes back into use. When I was a county councillor in Powys, the number of people waiting for homes was astronomical. We only built 5,000 homes across the whole of Wales last year. So, do you not agree with me, Minister, that it is about time that Welsh Government took some responsibility for bringing those empty homes back into use and building more homes so we can actually give those people in Wales who are waiting on housing waiting lists the homes that everybody deserves to have here in Wales?

Julie James AC: Well, you know—‘sighs’, as they say at the beginning of the thing—it isn’t wholly devolved. Local housing allowance isn’t devolved.

James Evans MS: Housing is devolved, Minister.

Julie James AC: You started with a phrase that wasn’t accurate, because local housing allowance isn’t devolved—[Interruption.] It isn’t devolved. Whether you like it or not, it isn’t devolved. Therefore, we are hamstrung in what we can do, and that policy drives homelessness, because people cannot stay in their rented accommodation because they cannot afford it because the local housing allowance is not high enough. It's below where the poor laws were. You have to take some responsibility for this.
Now, we’ve done a lot of things. We’ve done a lot of things here in Wales, and, once the Tories had finally seen sense and taken the caps off housing revenue accounts, and taken the restrictions off HRAs, which is only a few years ago—and it took 40 years for you to actually wake up and smell the coffee—we have ramped it up since then. There’s no getting away from this history lesson. You don’t like it. You asked me the question, this is the answer. You don’t like it because you don’t like accuracy in answers. So, the answer is: we have done everything that’s been possible to do within our devolved powers, but we are, as always, hamstrung by a blinkered and quite heartless Tory Government.

Llyn Padarn Water Quality

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the impact of sewage discharge on water quality in Llyn Padarn? OQ59245

Julie James AC: Diolch, Siân Gwenllian. Llyn Padarn is Wales’s only designated inland bathing water and has consistently achieved the highest classification of 'excellent'. As a designated bathing water, Natural Resources Wales imposes tight regulatory controls on all discharges, including storm overflows, that are located nearby.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Constituents have contacted me expressing concerns because they’ve found an invasive plant growing in Llyn Padarn in Llaneris, and they are convinced that sewage discharge into the water is feeding its growth. A specialist has confirmed that it’s a plant called lagarosiphon that is in the lake—it’s a new one on me, but that’s what this specialist has identified. These plants have created problems in lakes in Ireland, apparently. I would like an assurance that your Government is aware of this issue, which of course could have a damaging impact on the biodiversity of this very special lake. I’d also like an assurance that you are working closely with agencies in order to take appropriate action.

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, Siân, and I will certainly get NRW to check once more, because we are very proud of the fact that Llyn Padarn is designated in this way, and I absolutely will ask them to do that. We are aware—I can’t even say the name of it—of lagarosiphon, as I think it’s called. Curly water weed, anyway, in common parlance, is a very invasive non-native species categorised as a species of special concern. It’s a significant threat to native species, and you’re quite right that we need to check and make sure that it’s right, and I will make sure that that happens again.
Actually, the GB invasive species strategy was launched last month, and it provides a strategic framework for actions that we can take, alongside other Governments of the UK, statutory bodies and key stakeholders. So, it's pretty timely that the strategy is now in force, Siân, and I will absolutely make sure that NRW is aware of the concerns and does another inspection.

Sam Rowlands MS: Could I support the Member for submitting today's important question on the impact of sewage discharge on water quality at Llyn Padarn? But of course, Minister, this is only the tip of a very dirty iceberg. Because we know that, at the end of last year, figures that were uncovered by ourselves found that, of the 184 sewage pipes operated by Welsh Water without permits in Welsh riverways, only one application had been submitted to NRW, meaning that 183 sewage pipes in Wales were operating without permits, discharging waste into our waterways, which we know has happened tens of thousands of times, in terms of that discharge into our waterways. So, in light of this, Minister, what assurances can you give me and my residents that you are taking this issue of sewage discharge seriously, so that places like Llyn Padarn can be enjoyed by people for years to come?

Julie James AC: Of course, we take them extremely seriously, and there are a number of threads running through your question, and, indeed, Siân's there, Sam Rowlands. At the risk of testing the Llywydd's patience, because that's quite a complicated answer, we're in the process of agreeing a set of criteria for the price review mechanism for the water authorities in Wales, because we need to ensure both that bills are affordable, but that the money is available to invest in the upgrade of the various systems across Wales, including combined sewer overflows and a large number of other assets that require to be upgraded, and so we need to get that mechanism right.
In the meantime, just specifically on Llyn Padarn, the assets locally comprise two pumping stations and a storm overflow. The Llanberis sewage treatment works discharges secondary treated final effluent into the Afon y Bala, which drains into Llyn Padarn. Chemical dosing and sand filtration at the sewage treatment works provide additional treatment, removing excess nutrients from the effluent prior to discharge.
We've invested over £5 million—sorry, Dŵr Cymru have invested over £5 million—to improve Llanberis works. The work included increasing the storm capacity and screening and tighter phosphorus limits. I'm sure you know that we want to begin the process of designating more inland waters for wild swimming, and I should declare my usual interest, because I'm very keen on that kind of thing. And so we want this system to work. We want the system that NRW uses to tightly control the quality there to work. Of course, that will allow inland bathing waters, but it will also drive up the quality of water generally in the rivers. My colleague, the Trefnydd, just outlined the process from the phosphate summit last week, and there will be a written statement in due course, setting out the actions coming out of the summit.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. It is now five years and nine months that have passed since Grenfell. For 2,099 days, hundreds of Welsh residents have been living in fear regarding the integrity of their own properties and risk of fire. Between 2017-18 and 2021-22, there were 1,323 fires in purpose-built blocks of flats, and 514 fires in buildings that have been converted into flats.
Now, you must be aware of the Welsh Cladiators and their campaign for recognition of the immediacy of the need for help from this Welsh Government. Now, last week, we did hear, to be fair, that you will make a statement before the summer. However, Minister, this is of such serious consequences, the issues that these people are facing, that I would ask, in all sincerity, whether you would bring that forward.
We're also anxiously awaiting you bringing some legislation forward. We realise that this isn’t a Welsh Government fix only. A lot of this is purely down to the fact that some developers are just refusing to accept their own responsibility. So, I suppose, for me—. We had the meeting on 1 March; it was really well attended. Since then, I've received numerous concerns and really shocking examples of some of the issues facing those living in these properties. Every single day that remediation delays, it is just making the costs go up, in terms of insurance, management costs.
Somebody’s doing very nicely out of this, I have to admit, and that's at the expense of these victims. So, we are very keen to see these victims protected, and I've listened to you so many times on the complexities around the issue. What steps are you going to take for those developers who simply will not engage to face up to their responsibilities and sign the developers' pact that you have actually brought forward? Thank you.

Julie James AC: So, Janet, we've rehearsed this a number of times, haven't we? The scale of the problem is very different in Wales, and we've approached it very differently. We identified 15 high-rise buildings with aluminium composite material cladding following Grenfell; three in the social sector and 12 in the private sector. The three social sector buildings were remediated immediately with £3 million support from the Welsh Government. The 12 private sector schemes were taken forward by the private sector. These have all either been completed or are being completed right now at developers' cost. That's through our intervention in the first place.
We're also aware, through our expression-of-interest process, of one further building above 11m in height that might have ACM cladding, and our consultants are currently undertaking additional tests to confirm whether this is the case as quickly as possible. If it is, of course, it will be put into the same process for remediation. So, we acted very swiftly on the cladding.
However, I've also been very clear that cladding isn't the only issue, and I know you're aware of that. So, unfortunately, a large number of these buildings have a large number of different problems, and each building has a different set of those problems. So, you can't do a one size fits all; each building has a different set of issues. Some of them have compartmentation problems, some of them have stuff-that-holds-the-cladding-on problems, some of them have firebreak problems. There's a whole myriad of different problems. So, as I've said a number of times before—I'm very happy to repeat it—we're in the process of having the inspections done. They're nearly completed; there are only a few left to go. The ones that are left to go are either because we've had a problem with the managing agent getting permission from the freeholder to do the invasive survey, or, in a couple of instances, we've had problems because we've had to shut a major traffic thoroughfare in order to get access to the building, and, obviously, that takes some time to put the traffic orders and so on in place. But, other than that, they're largely there.
I will be making an announcement about the so-called orphan buildings shortly. We have a plan to deal with those. I won't pre-announce that, but I'm hoping to be able to make that announcement very soon now, where we can start the remediation for those buildings, which, just to explain the phrase, are buildings where everyone who ought to do the work has either gone bankrupt or can't be found, or, for very complex reasons, there isn't someone that we can hold responsible for that.
In addition, we have 11 developers who've signed our pact, and we expect them to sign our legal documentation imminently. There are one or two who haven't signed the pact and come forward. I've been extremely clear with those that we will be taking draconic action against them. We will move the same way as England exactly to stop them taking beneficial use of a planning consent that they may have and to debar them from doing any work in the public sector, which will, effectively, mean they can't work unless they remediate the buildings they're responsible for.
The last piece of this, and this is—. My heart goes out to these people, but we have got a scheme that buys out the flat for somebody who is in a really difficult situation. A number of people have written to me saying that they're in that situation, so we've encouraged them to go through that process. We have a number of those going through now, and we really want to be sympathetic to people who want to move on with their lives. We've also been working really hard with insurance companies and with lenders to make sure that the ES1W—I always get that the wrong way round—forms don't mean that people can't sell. So, an enormous amount of work has gone on in this sector.
But it is different here in Wales, because of the different scale and the market is a different scale, so we don't have some of the levers that the UK Government has. Also, we've just taken a slightly different approach. So, I don't believe that the leaseholders themselves should have to take legal action, and I know they want me to implement the provisions that allow them to, but legal action is not some sort of panacea. Just because you're taking legal action doesn't mean you have a sudden and effective resolution, and there are buildings just local to here that are in a litigation situation, and it's quite clear that it isn't an effective solution.
Our documentation is set up slightly differently. When the developers sign the documentation with us, it's the Welsh Government that would take them to court. We will bear the legal risk and responsibility for that. I think that's right, because I don't think the leaseholders should bear the lottery, a little bit, of litigation, or the legal costs that go with it. So, I make no apology for having done it differently here in Wales. I absolutely appreciate the frustration of the people involved, but in the end I do think that our system will work for them. And the last piece is, of course, we've always done it for buildings over 11m, not 18m, here in Wales, and so more of them are caught in our system than would be the case if we followed the English view.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I think that’s probably the largest amount of information we’ve heard so far going forward of what has been done so far and what more needs to be done.
One of the issues that arose at the meeting I held was the cost of these surveys. There was one lady—and she had no reason to mislead us in any way—who made it clear she had two of these properties, and she actually was waiting for £75,000 reimbursement from the Welsh Government, and had been waiting for it for quite some time; nearly a year, I think she meant. And I was really shocked, because it’s a lot of money to put out for a survey to have been promised she’d have it reimbursed by the Welsh Government. If you want me to bring these to you on an individual basis, I’m happy to.
But one thing that did strike me—that 17 applications for reimbursement of survey fees have been submitted to you since October. Offer letters have only been issued to five responsible persons or management agencies. So, again, those victims are out of pocket until they have those payments.
Another issue that’s been raised with me is that you have received from the UK Government £375 million. Can you tell the Chamber here today—? I mean, that’s—. How you’ve had it in—. But that’s the figure; you’ve even used that figure yourself.

Julie James AC: Yes. [Inaudible.]

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, so tell us how you’re spending it, how much of that £375 million is left, and will you honour these surveys that these victims actually then—? They’re trying to sort this issue out themselves. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Right. The £375 million is the amount of money the Welsh Government has put into the building safety pot. It is not a consequential and it is not direct from the UK Government; so, just to be really clear about that. If we were relying on consequentials from the UK Government, we would have nothing like that sum of money—nothing like it.
In terms of reimbursement, we are looking to reimburse surveys where the surveys have been done correctly—they've been correctly tendered for; they haven't been done by a relative or a friend; they have all of the right components in them that we can rely on that survey work and it's not wasted money. I make no apology for the delay, Janet. This is public money we're talking about; we have to go through the process of making sure that, in reimbursing that money, the survey that's been carried out is something we can rely on and make use of, and I'm afraid that does take a little time. But I'm very keen indeed that people who have done the right thing and acted are not disadvantaged by that.
We're also looking at other expenditure that's been incurred by the leaseholders to see if there's anything we can do to reimburse it. I can't promise that, because it has to comply with all of the standards for the spending of public money, and you'd expect me to comply with those standards, but, if we can find a way to reimburse people who are out of pocket, we will. I can't promise that we will be able to reimburse all of it, and this is a situation not-of-the-public purse-making either. So, it's very important that we do that.
If you want to write to me with individual examples, please do, and I can look into them for you. I obviously can't comment on individual examples on the floor of the Senedd, but, again, this is a process that must be gone through in order to comply with our own fiduciary duties. [Interruption.] Sorry. My watch is now getting involved in the act. [Laughter.] My watch does not understand the phrase 'fiduciary duty', I think that's quite clear. [Laughter.] So, Janet, it does take some time, and I know that's frustrating, but I'm sure we'll get there in the end.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. And then, another issue that arose was the moneys that you have spent on registered social housing, so £8.7 million, and £1.9 million provided to Cardiff Community Housing Association. I understand there are two blocks in the bay here where the ones having the remediation are registered social landlords, and that private owners of property just have to stand by and see these works ongoing. Surely, there should be an equilibrium applied here, that this money isn’t just going into registered social landlords. These individuals, on an individual basis, all tot up to quite a lot of money, but I just feel that they are not being taken as seriously by the Welsh Government as registered social landlords. Will you be seeking to claw back any money from those RSLs that have benefited from your intervention? And how do you as a Minister actually prove to me and this Chamber that you will fairly apply any process, any initiative, so that those individual private property owners feel that they're being taken equally seriously? Thank you.

Julie James AC: So, Janet, quite clearly, there's a big difference between tenants in a social building and tenants in a privately owned building. There's a clear and obvious difference, not least that the people in a social building don't have any equity. It isn't an investment; it's not a private investment for them, it's merely a home and they rent it off a social landlord. Also, the complications of who exactly is responsible for that building don't exist where the social landlord is responsible. It's quite clear and obvious who is responsible for it, so it's just much more straightforward. Also, the Government has an overriding duty to social tenants. So, there is a clear and obvious difference between the two.
What we've been doing is trying to go as fast as possible whilst protecting the equity of the people in the building. I have a lot of sympathy with the people who have invested in those properties, but let's be clear, it is an investment, because the way that the housing market works in Britain is that property is often your home and also your biggest investment. That's the case for me and it's the case for large numbers of other families. So, I have a lot of sympathy with that. It's not a criticism, but it does make a very distinct difference between that and social housing tenants, who obviously don't have any equity in the property that they live in. They rely on their social landlord to keep them safe and adequately housed. So, it's a very different situation. And that is very clearly what is happening.
But, we are acting with pace to make sure that we can remediate all of the buildings that require it, working with the developers in order to make sure that the developers pay their full share of what they're responsible to do, but also going as fast as we can to make sure that the developers act, and act swiftly, and that we have work that's done to a high standard, which the Government is now overseeing to make sure that that high standard is there. And if the developers don't do what they're supposed to do this time, then the Welsh Government will be the contract holder and we will be the people who then take legal action against them and not the individual leaseholders, which will only lead to even more complex litigation and, I'm afraid, delays, as we've seen where litigation gets started.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Our natural world is precious and in order for us to understand how important it is that we protect it, we have to first understand how under threat it actually is. There's been alarm about reports that the BBC won't be broadcasting an episode of Sir David Attenborough's new series on British wildlife, reportedly over a fear of a backlash. Coincidentally, last week, 300 organisations from across Wales wrote to the First Minister, calling for the urgent introduction of the environmental legislation promised when this Senedd declared a nature emergency. We know that so much of our natural beauty in Wales is on the brink of being lost. Now, Minister, I would argue that the reports of a programme not being broadcast do suggest the extent to which the vested interests of some people in power stand in the way of positive change. So, in that new, more urgent context, would you agree to provide us with a timetable for when that legislation could be introduced, please?

Julie James AC: Yes, so, Delyth, I'm afraid I'm going to give you an answer you've had many times before. I didn't know about the BBC programme. If that's true, it's appalling, and the BBC really needs to think about what message it's giving, if that's what it's doing.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's on iPlayer.

Julie James AC: It's on iPlayer, is it? Good. Right.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Can I raise a point of order, Llywydd?

No, I don't need a point of order in the middle of questions.

Samuel Kurtz MS: It's not true. There's a BBC tweet saying that's untrue. That's all.

Okay. I need to get everything back to order here. But, thank you for the clarification from both Sam and Huw.

Julie James AC: In answer to the substantive question, Llywydd, which is the timing of the environmental governance and biodiversity targets, we will bring those forward as soon as we can. I absolutely understand the urgency. But, just to be really clear, Delyth, we're not waiting for the legislation to be put in place and then taking action. I am absolutely signed up to the 30x30 goals. That gives us seven and a bit years to get to where we need to be. Clearly, if we waited for the legislation to go through we would be really struggling. So, we are already working at pace. We've done the biodiversity deep-dive, I've done a whole series of things this week, which the Llywydd will get very cross with me if I start to list, but trust me we are working at pace. We will bring that legislation forward. I want that legislation to be robust. I want the agency to have teeth to hold our feet, or any successive Governments' feet, to the fire, and I want the biodiversity goals to be meaningful and make real differences on the ground. So, we are working at pace to do all of that in advance of the legislation. I will be bringing it forward as soon as we possibly can, but we also need to get it right, and I want it to be robust and vigorous legislation, as I know you do too.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you to Sam for pointing that out, something that has been published on Twitter too, but I'll return to that in a moment.
It is encouraging that the biodiversity deep-dive commits to bringing forward legislation that sets general targets for nature restoration, and also provision regarding environmental governance, and to do so as early as possible in this Senedd term, and I take on board what you just said. It also commits, of course, to a series of statutory targets that are more specific on nature restoration, which will have a role to play in ensuring that Wales plays its part in the global framework on biodiversity that exists.
Do you agree, and I'm bearing in mind what you just said, that you can't give a specific timetable, do you agree that it's now a matter of some urgency, perhaps following the decision, perhaps—? Yes, as Sam Kurtz just pointed out, no matter if this was a decision that had already been made by the broadcaster, some people think that a decision was made to not broadcast a programme that talked about how fragile the natural systems are in Wales and what the reasons for that are, and no matter whether that was done because of Government pressure—it seems it was not—or because the public wasn't in a position to want to hear that, or to be open to hearing it, no matter at what point that happened, do you agree that we need to do so much more to bring the public with us, so that we can all understand? We talk, for example, about a climate emergency and a nature emergency, but I'm concerned sometimes that we are losing this idea of how fragile the situation is. Over the weekend, we saw it on our screens. We will lose that, and the public need to understand that. What do you think that the Welsh Government can do to reinforce how critical this situation is with regard to nature in Wales?

Julie James AC: Yes. Delyth, I share your concern there. Actually, David Attenborough's programmes have done an enormous amount over the years, haven't they, to raise awareness of the fragility of the natural world. I've only seen the first episode of the one in question, but my goodness, it's emotive in the extreme, and very beautiful as well. It does make you realise, doesn't it, as I said when I came back from COP15, when you see the beauty of the natural world and then watch the species extinction that goes alongside it, it really makes you realise quite how fragile the planet we live on actually is.
That's why I was so determined to sign up to those goals, and that's why we're so determined to get it right. It does matter to get it right. We've also—. I'm going to say this rather controversially, but it's absolutely true. We know from other legislation that's gone through this place that actually just getting the legislation through is just the first bit. I want this to be implementable. I want the legislation to go through, and then I want us to be able to actually do it immediately. I don't want to spend five years implementing it, so we need to get it right. If that's a bit slower introduction because then we get it right, I make no excuse for that. I think that's a lesson we've learnt.
We're about to embark on a behaviour change programme, which will help people come along the net-zero and nature-positive pathways with us. We're out to consultation at the moment. We're going to be doing a lot of work—. My colleague here, Jeremy Miles, has been doing a lot of work in schools with the Eco-Schools project and so on, because our young people are very evangelical about this. But I agree with you. We need to take the public with us. We need to counter some of the disinformation that's out there, and we need to work at pace with all sectors of society or we just will not—. This is an existential crisis. We will not do it alone. We have to do it with everyone else.

Access to Public Transport

Samuel Kurtz MS: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on access to public transport in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ59268

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. We are working to improve access to public transport in south-west Wales. Recently, we've invested in converting the T1 TrawsCymru service to using an electric fleet, and we are working on a groundbreaking hydrogen pilot, which will be implemented in the region.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you very much for that response, Deputy Minister.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm sure, Deputy Minister, you will be aware of my enthusiasm for the new St Clears railway station in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. This is a project that the community is incredibly invested in. However, there is concern from Carmarthenshire County Council about shortfalls in potential source funding. I wrote to you, Deputy Minister, on 20 January to raise these concerns. However, I'm yet to receive a reply. Deputy Minister, local people want to see improved access to public transport and the UK Government have committed £5 million to this project, yet there seems to be little progress on the ground. So, in lieu of no reply to my correspondence, what assurances can you give my constituents and to me that the Welsh Government still intends to deliver on a new train station in St Clears? And what timescale can they expect it to be delivered within? Diolch, Llywydd.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. Well, I do hope the letter wasn't lost in the post, but we did reply to a written question from you on this very same subject, and the letter's reply would have said exactly the same as the reply we submitted to you on the written question, which is that the work is due to be finalised soon and will provide an outline design and an expected construction cost, which will inform the next steps and the programme timescales for this new station. But as Sam Kurtz rightly pointed out, there has been an increase in cost, as there has been with every infrastructure project in the country. There is now a gap that has doubled, which obviously creates a challenge for us at a time when our capital budgets from the UK Government have fallen in real terms by 8 per cent. So, there are consequences to the cuts by the UK Government to the priorities the Member and we have. So, we're going to have to try and work that through.
We are conscious, obviously, that one of the sites that Hywel Dda health board are consulting on for a new west Wales hospital is in St Clears, and that is very much part of our thinking, so we'll be following that process closely. Fundamentally, of course, this is rail infrastructure, and rail infrastructure is not devolved. It should be for the UK Government to be fully funding rail infrastructure, and perhaps we can work together to make representations to them to help us fill any shortfall.

Littering and Fly-tipping

Heledd Fychan AS: 4. How is the Welsh Government ensuring a reduction in littering and fly-tipping in South Wales Central? OQ59255

Julie James AC: Duty bodies, including local authorities, have responsibility for managing litter and fly-tipping in their respective areas. Welsh Government currently funds Keep Wales Tidy and Fly-tipping Action Wales to support improvements in local environmental quality across Wales. This includes partner activities, enforcement work and the promotion of behaviour change.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. As you'll be aware, there is a major issue with regard to litter and fly-tipping, and we're all aware of the damaging effect that this can have, not just on the beauty of our communities, but in terms of nature and wildlife. We all, of course, have a part to play, and I'd like to thank the thousands of people across the nation who regularly litter pick in their communities as volunteers, in all weathers, and they play their part as conscientious citizens by so doing.
But there are some areas that are too dangerous to allow volunteers to collect litter there, such as busy roadsides and railways, yet there's a major problem with litter in many of these areas. I receive regular complaints about litter from people who catch trains from the Valleys to Cardiff, and roads users in my region, who mention the A470, the M4 and the A4232 as examples. When can we expect the publication of the final version of the Government's plan to tackle litter and fly-tipping, and how will this plan remedy the situation?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Heledd. I share your concern. I've actually, before I had your question in fact, raised with my own officials my own perception that the amount of litter along particular roads and train lines has increased in recent years, and I think there are a number of reasons for this, which we are looking at. So, I am very keen to strengthen the ability of local authorities to take action there, both, actually, retrospective action to pick the litter up, but actually some behaviour change and education programmes for people to understand the real impact of throwing a bottle out of your car window or whatever it is. There also is an issue with the way that some waste contractors pick up skips without the correct netting on the top and so on, and blow-off from that. So, I'd already independently—and I'm more than happy to renew that—asked for a review of how that system works, how we fund it, and what the relevant duties are. We have the responsibility for some of the trunk road network, but we delegate that to local authorities, and I've asked for a review of that as well.
So, I share your concern, and I'd already started the process, but I'm very happy to invigorate it again, of looking to see what else we can do. But I do think there is a big behaviour change issue here. People really do need to understand what happens when they litter, what happens to the plastic that they leave on the side of the road. It's not just that one bottle, and what happens as that leaches into the environment on a longer term basis. So, as I've said, we've been working with Jeremy Miles, with the Eco-Schools initiative, to really drive home to people the effect of their individual behaviour, and a lot of this will be as a societal push, won't it, to making such behaviour just completely unacceptable.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I couldn't concur more with the sentiments expressed by you and the previous questioner about the amount of litter that's available to be witnessed on highways and railways, especially in South Wales Central. On the link road coming off Culverhouse Cross, there's a bed on the side of the road there that's been there for three weeks. There are also about 12 black bin bags in the nearest lay-by there, which have been there for at least 10 days. In the Vale of Glamorgan, at the Aubrey Arms pub, there's a load of black bin bags just on the kerb there, just left. I appreciate this isn't the Government's fault; I always try my best to blame the Government for most things, but in fairness, this isn't the Government's fault. It is a societal issue.
Education is one of the planks that we can use. Can you confirm whether local authorities have come through with ideas, with suggestions to your good self as Minister, to enable them to take people who do dump rubbish in our countryside, along our roadways and our railways—? Because the examples I just gave you, that is commercial dumping. That's not just the bottle going out of the window, which is repugnant in itself; that's someone consciously dumping a piece of either commercial waste or general household waste that amounts to a lot in an area that should be pristine, clean, and able to sell our great capital city of Cardiff, and, indeed, the great countryside of the Vale of Glamorgan.

Julie James AC: Absolutely, Andrew. Obviously, it is a matter for the local authority, and I hope you've reported it to them. I actually have myself raised the slip road, as it's called, with Cardiff Council, in a recent meeting with the leader. We are doing a number of things. We've got Fly-tipping Action Wales, for example, working in partnership at the moment with Rhondda Cynon Taf to catch fly-tippers, using surveillance on Natural Resources Wales-managed land, and Keep Wales Tidy, through the Welsh Government-funded Caru Cymru project, works with local environment groups and the police to target litter hotspots caused by anti-social behaviour, and then to prosecute the people responsible.
I'm very keen to highlight the prosecutions, because I think there is a deterrent effect of that. If you open the black bags, we can often find those responsible, and trace it back through the litter. We've been encouraging local authorities to do that; we have an action plan to do that. As I say, we're doing the behaviour change thing. That behaviour change goes for businesses as well. It's not just the people who tip it, is it, it's the business who actually asked for their rubbish to be disposed of in that manner. So, there are behaviour change programmes for commercial waste and businesses as well.
That will ramp up as we bring in the new recycling targets for businesses and so on, because this is valuable recyclate; it's not just litter. This is valuable material that we can use as part of our circular economy effort, because we're beginning to attract really serious reprocessors here to Wales, because of the high-value recyclate we have. That material is, to my mind, not just unsightly litter; it's actually wasted raw material that can be used. We need to get that attitude out there into the public, but we also need to prosecute those people who do the things that you've just mentioned, because I couldn't agree more—it's both unsightly and environmentally hazardous, and we need to get that point across.

Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon

Mike Hedges AC: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon? OQ59237

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mike Hedges. There are currently no ongoing public sector projects proposed to build a tidal lagoon in Swansea bay. The First Minister will be making an announcement on the tidal lagoon challenge at the Marine Energy Wales conference, which is in Swansea, on 22 March.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I welcome that answer? When the Swansea tidal lagoon was rejected by the Conservative Westminster Government, gas prices were low, and expected by the Government to remain low for ever. As we all know, they got that wrong. We know that tidal energy is reliable and capable of solving some of our energy needs. We also know that it does not involve expensive decommissioning or have a limited life. What action is the Welsh Government taking to convince Westminster that this safe, clean energy, that is now cost-competitive, should be commissioned, and should be commissioned immediately?

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Mike. I completely concur with the sentiments of your question there. I won't be tempted into pre-announcing the First Minister's announcement on 22 March, but the Welsh Government absolutely supports tidal energy as a means to achieve our net-zero goals, as well as providing socioeconomic benefits. As you said, it provides clean, reliable energy, and we've made a programme for government commitment to make Wales a world centre of emerging tidal technologies. The surging wholesale price of gas, exacerbated by Russia's war in Ukraine, has indeed brought into sharp focus the need for an accelerated transition to renewables. It has both affected the price of gas and the availability of gas too. Clearly, what we need is a source of clean, reliable and secure energy, and we have this in abundance around our shores.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I thank Mike Hedges for tabling this question, and also concur with him, not on his assessment of the UK Government, but on the benefits of tidal energy, particularly in Swansea bay? As the three of us, I think, proudly represent the city of Swansea—I think the best city on planet earth—we will know the benefits that the proposed lagoon, the Blue Eden project, could have for our city. But it's important to remember that it's not only a tidal lagoon: there's a high-tech battery plant as part of the Blue Eden project, a floating solar array, data storage, and waterfront homes for 5,000 people, as well as floating homes and a research centre. But considering the scale of the project and the excitement that it can generate for the city of Swansea, I haven't heard a lot from the Welsh Government. I appreciate that there's predominantly private sector investment, but I haven't heard a lot from the Welsh Government in terms of the practical support you've been providing. Can you just illustrate what concrete assistance your department is providing—to ensure planning obligations are met, for example, and adhered to—as well as whether any need for public funding at any point throughout the process has been discussed at all, so we can finally get that project off the ground?

Julie James AC: The project hasn't asked for any support from the Government so far. We've made it plain to the project that, if they wanted to discuss any potential support with us, we're happy to do so. But as of this moment, they have not asked for that support. If they do want that support, then I'd be more than happy to discuss it with them. We have, of course, discussed with Swansea Council, and other affected councils—because it's not the only place in Wales that a tidal lagoon could go—many times what the planning obligations might be. I'm very pleased to see that the UK Government did allow, in round 4 of the last contract for difference, tidal energies to be included, and we're currently lobbying them hard to make sure that that stays, because that's a route to market for most emerging tidal technologies, including tidal lagoons. The UK Government, I think, really missed a trick—and I think your benches agree with us—when they didn't fund the last project in Swansea bay, so we've been urging them to make good that, and make sure that the contract for difference round includes tidal technologies of all sorts, so that those projects can be brought to market.

Housing Support and Homelessness Services

Peter Fox AS: 6. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to help charities that provide housing support and homelessness services? OQ59248

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peter Fox. The Welsh Government continues to support local authorities and third sector providers to assist people in housing need. We have provided over £207 million for housing support and homelessness services this financial year alone, supporting local authorities and third sector providers to deliver front-line services to prevent and relieve homelessness.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. As you know, more than 60,000 people across Wales currently rely on the housing support grant, which provides much-needed aid for those facing societal problems. The decision of your Government in its final budget to deliver a real-terms cut to this grant has unsurprisingly brought huge concerns through the third sector. One of those concerned organisations is the charity Pobl. They previously warned the Welsh Government that it was crucial that the grant funding be increased because homelessness and housing support services are already facing a 10.1 per cent increase in costs this year. But because of the real-terms cut to the grant, they have told me that some essential housing services and homelessness services are now under threat. Minister, do you agree with me that it was a mistake not to increase funding for the grant, and what will your Government do now to ease the third sector's serious concerns?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peter. In support of our ambition to end homelessness, as I said, we're already investing over £207 million in homelessness and housing support services this financial year alone. Our main homelessness prevention grant is the housing support grant, which is provided to local authorities. In 2021-22, this was increased by £40 million, which is over a 30 per cent increase, to £166.763 million. For 2023-24, we've been able to maintain that increase in the housing support grant budget, so it remains at £166.763 million, despite the extraordinarily difficult budgetary position we currently face. We also uplifted funding for the vast majority of projects funded by the homelessness prevention grant by 6 per cent in 2023-24. We recognise the pressure on homelessness services, so the homelessness prevention budget also will increase by £15 million in 2023-24, which is an additional £10 million more than previously planned.
We face an unprecedented problem, don't we, with the inflation. The inflation is causing a real problem out there, but it's also causing a real problem in here. The money we have had goes less far, and the money they have goes less far. So we've been working with our local authorities to make sure that services can be maintained. We're currently running a recruitment campaign into housing advisory services. I really pay tribute to the staff, who have worked tirelessly throughout the pandemic and really stepped up to the mark; I'm proud of what Wales has achieved. But the budget situation this year has been awful—it's the worst I've ever seen, and I've been a Minister here for a very long time now. It has not been possible to do everything we'd wanted to do. But we have managed to maintain an unprecedented increase in that budget, and we've put the homelessness prevention budget, as I say, up by £15 million already. I have a lot of sympathy with the sector, I pay tribute to the work that they do, but the budget situation this year has been very difficult.

Homelessness in South Wales East

Natasha Asghar AS: 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to reduce levels of homelessness in South Wales East? OQ59271

Julie James AC: Diolch, Natasha Asghar. The Welsh Government is committed to ending homelessness across all regions of Wales and has invested over £207 million in homelessness and housing support services, as well as a record £300 million in social housing in this financial year alone. This includes over £67 million in social housing grant for authorities in South Wales East.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The number of people sleeping rough in Wales has grown to 116, and, concerningly, a large number of these—53, in fact—are in my region of South Wales East. Homelessness services are under immense pressure, as mentioned by my colleague Peter Fox, with 93 per cent saying that they are extremely or very concerned about their ability to continue delivering services if there is no increase to the housing support grant. Service providers and local authority commissioners are having to make tough decisions about making cuts and making staff redundant. Only last week, a number of people from my region with experience of homelessness visited the Senedd and spoke passionately about the need for high-quality services to help people ultimately out of homelessness. So, Minister, will you give me and the organisations working to reduce homelessness the assurance that the housing support grant will receive extra funding if there are consequentials for Wales as a result of the spring statement? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Natasha. I've just set out quite a lot of what we've already done in answer to Peter Fox, but, in addition to that, we've allocated over £67.496 million to local authorities in South Wales East via the social housing grant programme. We've also established the £89 million transitional accommodation capital programme to increase good-quality, longer term accommodation to support all those in housing need. In South Wales East, we've provided £14.925 million to local authorities to support 192 homes for temporary accommodation in those circumstances. We've also given an additional £10 million a year to local authorities in year to support the provision of temporary accommodation to top up the existing £10 million we'd already allocated, as we move towards a rapid rehousing approach.
But I will say, Natasha, I really do hope, of all the measures that we are hoping for in the budget, that an increase to the local housing allowance is in there, because this is driving a lot of the problem that we have. It's a big amount of money as a headline, but in terms of the money it saves, all of this money I'm setting out here it would save, because it would enable people to stay in the private rented sector homes that they actually have had quite long term in some cases. So, actually, if there is a single thing I'd be calling for in the budget, it is an uplift in the local housing allowance, as I've made very plain.

Question 8, finally. Mark Isherwood.

Forestry and Woodland Restocking

Mark Isherwood AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government's forestry and woodland restocking policy? OQ59243

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mark Isherwood. We need to increase tree cover in Wales. Woodland that is felled is normally required to be replanted as a condition of the felling licence. Where there are good reasons not to do so, loss in tree cover is usually compensated for elsewhere.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. There is widespread support for plans for a national forest for Wales, a vast network of woods and forests across the nation open for everyone to explore and enjoy. However, woodland continues to be seen as a public good even when it provides an ideal habitat for apex predators whose predation of nests and chicks is a primary cause of, for example, curlew breeding failure. What specific action, therefore, are you taking to ensure that the Welsh Government's target for woodland planting in Wales takes further account of this, which is central to nature recovery? Further, how are you addressing concerns raised with me by a Flintshire constituent that your My Tree, Our Forest scheme is seeing trees planted too close to each other with very little, if any, space for them to develop properly, and, finally, by the Country Land and Business Association Cymru that the planting of new trees should be accompanied by a tree health strategy to support those who manage woodland in removing diseased specimens promptly and replacing them, in order to reduce the spread of disease, when we have a crisis in ash and larch and emerging issues in oak? Diolch yn fawr.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mark. I pay tribute to your efforts on behalf of the curlew. You know that I've come along to the meetings of the curlew protection programme. I'm really pleased to see that we're working alongside them. I'll just say, and I said this at the weekend to a number of groups I spoke with, that we use the tree as an iconic symbol of what we're trying to do in both carbon capture and in nature-positive work, in the same way as the World Wildlife Fund uses the panda. Nobody thinks that the World Wildlife Fund, therefore, thinks that pandas should be absolutely everywhere on the planet, and we don't think that trees should be absolutely everywhere in the countryside. It's an iconic symbol. You know as well as I do that we are restoring an enormous amount of natural peatland. Clearly, that should not be forest. Species-rich open meadows should not be forests. Where there should be forests, though, we are woefully behind, so we do need to restock, and we need to restock quickly, but the right tree in the right place.
In terms of the My Tree, Our Forest initiative, each tree comes with a programme to help you understand how and where to plant it and what it should look like at various stages; a wealth of expertise is available via Coed Cymru to help people and, of course, we will also plant your tree somewhere else for you if you're not lucky enough to have a garden capable of having it. It's been a very popular programme.
I've also planted trees through the National Trust initiative in schools in my area, and I'd encourage all of you to get involved in that. They're blossom trees, and they bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the children who are very excited to do that—very interested in my talk to them on a future career in forestry. So, we're doing a lot of the right things here.
I don't want to put people off planting trees in their garden, but it does come with a plan for how to do that—it comes with instructions, so to speak. I do encourage people to go along to their hubs while they're open and pick up a tree and donate it to your local school, if you want to, because it's a really important part of reconnecting our population back to the natural environment, but it's very much the right tree in the right place. If you go along to one of the hubs, the people who are handing out the trees will have a long chat with you about where you want to put the tree and what kind of tree will be best suited to your piece of land or your garden.

I'd love a Wales full of pandas, I must say. You could be the champion of pandas at that point, then, Darren Millar, to bring us—[Laughter.]Okay, okay. Thank you to the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

4. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language

We'll move on now to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question to Jeremy Miles is from Heledd Fychan.

Cost of the School Day

Heledd Fychan AS: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting learners in South Wales Central with the cost of the school day? OQ59256

Jeremy Miles AC: Our school essentials grant has made a huge difference to a number of low-income families across Wales, helping to reduce concerns about the purchase of uniform and kit, for example. Funding of £13.6 million will be available in 2023-24.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. So, you've outlined clearly that there are a number of things that have been put in place to assist families. You talked about reducing the concern, but the concern is obviously continuing, because the truth is that a number of families still find difficulty funding the essentials related to the school day. You referred to uniform, but although you've changed the guidance on the matter, a number of schools are continuing to demand a logo on school uniforms, and such things as a blazer, which add significantly to the cost of a school uniform. With costs increasing, we know that the grant available for families isn't adequate, particularly with regard to these additional costs.
Another matter, of course, is the cost of school trips—all those additional things that enrich the experiences of a learner. Often, these vary a great deal from school to school, depending on whether parents can raise the funds themselves, which means that a number of our most deprived learners are losing out on experiences such as theatre trips and so on if the school can't afford to pay on their behalf. So, may I ask what more the Government can do to ensure that no learner loses out on a day of learning or experiences that enrich their education because of the household's economic situation?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, Heledd Fychan raised some very important issues. She knows that I agree with her that schools should be accessible to children from all backgrounds, and the school essentials grant has made a significant contribution to that, and along with that, we are launching a campaign to market the availability of that grant in order to ensure that everyone who qualifies does apply for that funding. One of the challenges in spreading free school meals in all primary schools is that you don't have that free-school-meals data anymore, so it's important that we communicate this new programme, and a comms plan is in place at the moment and is showing some progress.
In addition to that, she mentioned that we have been consulting on changing guidance on school uniform. The new guidance hasn't yet been published, but I intend to do that in the next few weeks. It's very important that we do ensure that every governing body looks in earnest at this issue. Most do see this as an important priority already. There are important guidelines available to schools from ChildreninWales, which does explain to headteachers and to governing bodies how they can ensure that the costs of schooling aren't a barrier to becoming involved with the school's life more widely, and I encourage all schools to do everything that they can to keep costs as low as possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Andrew RT Davies AC: You and I can debate the merits of the free-school-dinners policy that the Government have brought forward, but what is important is to understand how local authorities and schools in particular have been supported in rolling out this policy. The Vale of Glamorgan Council, which is the area that I come from, clearly has had to fund some of the capital expenditure themselves to the tune of £250,000—they replied to an FOI that I put in to them. What assessment has the department made about capital expenditure that local authorities have had to be making in the South Wales Central area to implement this policy? And, given the overrunning costs that some authorities are incurring with this, are the Government going to make up the shortfalls, in particular for the Vale of Glamorgan Council, which, as I said, is £250,000 capital money that they've had to use that could've been spent elsewhere?

Jeremy Miles AC: The Member says that we can 'debate the merits' of it; let's be clear, he doesn't want us to be doing it. [Interruption.] He doesn't want us to be feeding every child in primary school, so that's absolutely the position that his party takes. So, there's no debate about the merits of it; it's pretty clear what his position is on it, so let's have that on the record.
There's a significant fund that has been invested in delivering this effectively. Part of that is capital—that's running at a £60 million budget at the moment—and part of it is revenue, running at around £260 million over the period. The work has been done with each local authority to identify their needs and has been allocated on that basis. I just want to pay tribute to the Vale of Glamorgan Council, and councils right across Wales, for the incredible speed, actually, at which they've been able to deploy that capital and roll out the scheme. When similar proposals were considered, for example, in Scotland, understandably, perhaps, the period between the policy being initiated and it being rolled out in schools was to the order of twice as long as we've been able to do it in Wales. That, in no small part, has been because of the commitment of local authorities right across Wales. And, actually, we've been looking carefully at how we roll out—and we'll be making some announcements again in coming weeks about the second year—and that does respond to the real challenges that there are in implementing some of the capital changes required on the ground—to adapt kitchens and so on. That picture varies right across Wales, of course, but the funding has been shared fairly in a way that reflects the needs of authorities, and I thank them for all their work.

Twenty-First Century Schools

Buffy Williams MS: 2. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact the increased cost of living is having on plans for 21st century schools? OQ59244

Jeremy Miles AC: We recognise that schools and colleges play a vital role in supporting our local communities. It's essential that investment in our education estate through our sustainable communities for learning programme drives energy efficiencies, reduces revenue pressures, and improves access to these important facilities.

Buffy Williams MS: Thank you, Minister. The benefits that the twenty-first century schools bring to our pupils and our teachers are enormous. We are fortunate in Rhondda to have three twenty-first century schools planned: one for Llyn y Forwyn, which will be completed over the next two years; one for Penrhys primary school; and one for Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda. Now, Minister, I know that you visited Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda and understand the challenges that the school faces at the current site. The school community there is desperate for new facilities. But I also understand that, due to the chaos at Westminster, the financial situation that we face since the initial twenty-first century schools announcement, is extremely different. Minister, what assurances can you give, if any, that future twenty-first century schools plans will begin and be completed at the very same pace as previous twenty-first century schools projects?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Buffy Williams—and that's a very important question—and I thank her as well for inviting me to visit Ysgol Gyfun Cwm Rhondda, and I thank Mr Spanswick and the staff for the very warm welcome that they gave me when I was able to visit, and I saw, of course, the facilities in the school there and the important work that they do at first-hand. The sustainable communities for learning programme of course is subject to the same pressures—inflationary pressures, construction cost increases, labour cost increases, as any other aspect of Government investment or, indeed, local government investment. In order to try and do our part to compensate for that, and to make sure that projects aren't unduly held up in the way that Buffy Williams is mentioning in her question, that budget has been increased by 33 per cent over the next two financial years, partly to support our new rolling mechanism for delivery—so it's a much nimble and flexible programme than it has been in the past—to respond to the ability of some authorities to move faster and for others to be able to adjust their plans. But that funding will also support additional cost pressures within the construction industry. And she will, I know, have seen the announcement that I made at the end of last week of a further £60 million—£50 million for schools and £10 million for colleges—to support capital maintenance, but prioritising energy efficiency works across our school and college estate in Wales, which is obviously a very important part of our Net Zero Wales plan as well.

James Evans MS: Minister, I've said in this Chamber on a number of occasions that I want to see brand new Welsh-medium schools right across Wales, and I'd especially like to see them in Brecon and Radnorshire. I'd like to know what assessment the Welsh Government has done on the cost-of-living crisis and the rise of costs of everything that is associated with building these schools, and what impact that is going to have on the delivery of having more Welsh speakers right across Wales, especially in rural communities like mine in Brecon and Radnor.

Jeremy Miles AC: Over the course of the 10-year period of the Welsh in education strategic plans programme right across Wales, there will be, roughly speaking, 50 new schools, either through the construction of new schools or increased Welsh language provision in existing schools, partly by taking those schools along the Welsh language continuum. And so, the plan isn't all dependent on actually physically building new schools; it's a mix of the two, and that's true in Brecon and Radnor as it is in Powys at large and across Wales, and that's really important. We've wanted to work with authorities to design plans that best reflect their needs, but it's a 10-year programme, and so, we are factoring in the cost implications of that, but we are confident that those plans can be met.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Minister, and first of all, we turn to the Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, since having my education shadow portfolio, I've undertaken a tour of schools across Wales, and resoundingly, the No. 1 concern that they raise with me is ALN, additional learning needs. Reform was needed and no-one disagrees with that, but there are significant concerns about the reality of what is now happening in schools on the ground. Transferring those already diagnosed or identified onto the new ALN has been relatively straightforward, but all those, particularly younger aged children and young people who need to be identified for the first time, are taking worryingly long to be identified or diagnosed, and the waiting time for these children to get that support that they desperately need is astronomically long and extremely concerning to parents, teachers and, of course, heads.
This is not only detrimentally affecting the child or young person in question, as they cannot receive that vital one-to-one support or support that they need, but it equates to them missing out on an education that they need and deserve. It will also mean that a teacher in a class has to focus on the needs of that child who is struggling, which will, of course, have a detrimental effect on the rest of the class as their learning time will be cut short. This isn't just a problem—it's a huge problem, Minister, and differs massively between the 22 local authorities. You're currently failing children across Wales and it can't go on. Heads of these schools are crying out to this Welsh Government for a national solution to this. So, what are you doing as a Government to urgently sort out this problem and ensure that no child misses out on the education that they deserve?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for the work that she's doing to improve her knowledge at first hand through speaking to schools right across Wales about the implications of the ALN reform. As she said, it's an important set of reforms and it's one that I know all parts of the Chamber are committed to. She says that transferring young people who are currently in the system onto the new system is straightforward—if she's hearing that, I'm very pleased. My experience of talking to teachers is that, actually, there are quite a lot of challenges in doing that, given the numbers involved and the timescales that they're working to. So, I don't think that we should underestimate that that is a challenge for schools as well.
We've invested over £76 million so far in preparing the sector for implementing the reforms for the next financial year. We've increased the annual budget by £4.5 million to £25.5 million, and in this financial year, we've invested £36.6 million to support implementation, which includes a significant investment in capital costs, but also in additional support for the teaching profession as well.
She will know, I think, that, in relation to a national approach, which I think was the focus of her question, we've identified transformation leads, which are looking at a Wales-wide approach. As she will know, we've adopted a regional approach to rolling out the early stages, but we've got to the point of transition, which requires, as she says in her question, a national approach. So, whether it's to do with Welsh language provision or a range of others, we've appointed transformation leads who will co-ordinate the picture on a national basis, and she will also, I hope, be reassured to know that the programme for workforce development, whilst also drawing, of course, on the work of local authorities and school improvement services, also benefits from a national professional learning programme aimed at ALNCOs, teachers and lecturers so they can develop on an equivalent basis right across Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. We welcome a national approach on this, as we need to absolutely ensure that school budgets have the money they need in the meantime, before this is sorted, to adapt to these extra pressures that are put upon them.
Minister, you'll be aware that the Welsh Government commissioned a resource for sex education in Wales. This ended up with AGENDA being created and used by teachers and schools across Wales on children as young as seven years old. I read through the 150-plus page document, and I have to say I find a lot of the content shocking, lacking in biological fact, and simply not age appropriate or appropriate for children. It states in your document that children as young as two or three know if they're trans, and it also mentions gender bending and sex switching. Minister, we both know that you cannot change your sex. Most concerningly, it talks about creating a secret language to talk about these issues, which of course could be used to exclude parents. Minister, are you happy for children as young as seven to be taught these things, and do you think that it's appropriate? And if you don't think it's appropriate or factually correct, why did this Government commission this work and hand it to every school in Wales?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, just for the Chamber to be aware, the letter that I wrote to the Member, the opposition spokesperson for education, now several months ago, I think, asking her to bring to my attention any documents of concern and evidence they're being used in schools in Wales remains unanswered. And the terms in which the Member brings the matters to the Chamber I'm afraid I think rather says it all. I don't think this is motivated principally by the well-being of young people in Wales.
But the substance—[Interruption.] The substance of her argument is this, if she will listen to the answer. The code that we have voted on as a Chamber is extremely clear about what young people in Wales should learn at which stages of development. There is no doubt about it. If she hasn't read it, she should do so. It is absolutely clear—. She will know, I think, if she has read the document to which she's referring, that it is not a document aimed at two and three-year-olds; it is a document that is for older children in the system.
The code is very clear. It makes a distinction, which I know she will welcome, between biological sex and gender. It is very clear that the purpose of the resource, and indeed that part of the curriculum, is partly to tackle bullying and discrimination. It is also about tackling gender stereotypes. We don't want to be in a situation where girls are taught that they should be nurses but not police officers, and boys are taught they should be police officers but not nurses. This is part of a rounded education for our young people.
The resource to which she refers is one that is aimed at teachers, not young people, and provides them with a set of tools to respond sensitively to things that young people are telling them. It isn't a prospectus for them to share proactively in school and it is, once again, just to be clear, to be used in a way that is age appropriate.
I saw last week the UK Government announcing they're reviewing curriculum resources. I'm sure people in England will welcome that. We've been doing that in Wales since the turn of the new year, and I hope that, by the summer, perhaps we'll have concluded that. And so I'll be really clear: I have an open invitation to the Member to raise with me any concerns that she has, backed up with evidence, in a way that enables them to be addressed. She persists in preferring to bring these matters to the Chamber. She's perfectly entitled to do that, but I think that's the context for her remarks.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, it's very easy—this AGENDA document, in black and white, has the Welsh Government logo on it and it was commissioned by yourself and your predecessor welcomed it. I've read out some of the things that were included, verbatim, in that document, which says sex switching, which we know to be factually incorrect. It says children as young as two or three know if they're trans. That is outrageous, quite frankly, as a parent. What you're forcing on young people is not based in law or biological facts, Minister. To make matters worse, every child is forced to consume this indoctrination of gender ideology, and you have taken away the parents’ right to opt out of those lessons, which I just don’t agree with. You state that, in most cases, parents’ concerns come from not knowing what’s going on. Information sharing is worryingly different between schools, across schools and across local authority areas. But many parents do know what’s going on, Minister, and still do not want their children learning these dangerous falsehoods. Minister, it’s time to scrap relationships and sexuality education, or, at the very least, give parents back the opt-out option. Would you agree with that today?

Jeremy Miles AC: I have the advantage over her in being able to see the faces of her colleagues as she’s bringing these things to the Chamber, and it is a picture, because they are as embarrassed as we are all embarrassed. We are all engaged in this Chamber in making sure that there is a curriculum—[Interruption.] We are all engaged in this Chamber in making sure that there is a curriculum that addresses the needs of our young people in a complex and changing world. We want to make sure that they are healthy and safe and not subject to misinformation, and not subject to propaganda and ideological opposition. That is what has motivated most people in this Chamber in supporting the curriculum and the code, and there was a point in time at which she was among those people.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Following the passing of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act last year, the process of establishing the commission for tertiary education and research has already commenced. The names of the chair and vice chair were published before Christmas, and the process of advertising for other board members is now ongoing. However, there is no white smoke on the chief executive appointment for the commission, four months since the closing date for applications on 15 November last year. So, can the Minister confirm the reason for this delay? Has the appointment process identified a candidate or candidates that are appointable? If so, when does he hope to inform the Senedd of the successful candidate, and does he agree, given the background of the chair and vice chair, that it is crucial that the chief executive should have practical experience and credibility in further education and other post-16 sectors? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: It's true to say that the commission hasn't been in a position, to date, to say 'Habemus papam' with regard to the appointment, but the work is ongoing to look at the candidates and to appoint the right person. Of course, it is important to ensure that, among the leadership team and the wider board, the range of skills and experiences needed for the commission is reflected.

Sioned Williams MS: So, you can't tell us as to when we can expect an announcement in terms of the candidate for chief executive. Because this delay is a concern, given the crucial role that one would expect a chief executive to play in shaping and developing a body that adheres to the ambitious vision that is at the heart of the legislation.
Given that the appointments announced to the leadership of the commission have veered, perhaps, towards higher education, it is crucial that those who will be leading this new body do understand the needs of further education and the communities that all of the providers captured under the commission will serve.
During that transitional period that will happen between the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and the commission, it is crucial that Welsh Government officials continue to engage with third sector organisations such as CollegesWales through its fora. As the secondary legislation is laid this year, will the Minister therefore explain the nature of the relationship between the commission and Welsh Government, and how any difference of opinion will be resolved? Who will have the final word about the shape and structure of the body?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to the Member for that. The question that she asks is very important. A great deal of engagement takes place. I chair a cross-sectoral group that looks at the strategic issues, but also at the operational issues when they are issues that a number of bodies have an interest in. Of course, there is a programme of more detailed work that takes place between officials and the officials of the bodies that she mentions.
It's very important that we do ensure, in this coming period, that there isn't an overlap between what we are asking the sector to do as a Government on the one hand, HEFCW on the other hand, and this new body as it is established and as it evolves from that point. There is work happening to co-ordinate, if you like, communication, and to be clear with the sector on when the consultations are about to start, so that that happens in a streamlined way from their point of view.
The legislation is entirely clear what the responsibilities of the Government are and what the commission's responsibilities are, and when the commission is established there will be a programme of legislation emanating from the Senedd transferring powers to the new body. As that happens, it's the new body that will be responsible for that. There's a detailed programme of work that has been created and, of course, that is evolving, and I've committed to write to the committee to update them and that will be shared with the wider Senedd.

Additional Learning Needs Support

Russell George AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on additional learning needs support in Montgomeryshire? OQ59246

Jeremy Miles AC: Through the ongoing implementation of the ALN reforms, children with additional learning needs in Montgomeryshire will be listened to and receive the support they need in their education.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister, and, of course, I heard your answer to Laura Anne Jones on this earlier on as well. Through casework, an issue that I'm picking up is that there appear to be some children with potential additional learning needs when they relocate from England into Wales, and there are some difficulties in regard to delayed assessments, which, of course, are required in order for them to receive the support they need for their education. Clearly, that is detrimental to the child when that occurs. So, can I ask what the Welsh Government is doing to help and support local authorities to provide a smooth transition for ALN assessment to ensure that a child receives ALN support in a timely manner, but also that there's parity of funding as well? So, my particular issue is concern around when an assessment may start in England, and then a child in the middle of that process is moving into Wales, to ensure that there's support for local authorities in that process.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Russell George for that question. It's an important question and he's—. It's a constructive issue to raise, so I thank him very much for that. We have issued guidance and continue to issue guidance that deals with some of the aspects that he's raised in his question, but I will speak to officials to make sure that we are clear that all the cross-border working that needs to be happening is taking place. He is making an important point about where an assessment begins, if you like, in one jurisdiction, but then is carried over into ours here. So, I'll write further to him in relation to the latest discussions on cross-border engagement.

Construction Skills

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. What assessment has the Minister made of the role of construction skills as part of an alternative curriculum for school pupils? OQ59261

Jeremy Miles AC: 'Curriculum for Wales' focuses on developing enterprising, creative learners, ready to play a full part in life and work. I strongly support the importance of skills as part of learning and the opportunity for schools and colleges to work together to meet the needs of young people.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Minister will know from his visits around Wales that some pupils don't engage with the traditional curriculum and with traditional education. But providing opportunities such as construction skills is a way in to a productive future career, and sometimes quite a lucrative career as well, with skills such as carpentry and bricklaying and plumbing and so on. So, will he join me in welcoming the work that's been done at places such as the Maesteg centre for construction excellence, which has linked with Maesteg comprehensive school to develop those opportunities for young people with level 1 qualifications that could then lead to junior apprenticeships or on to foundation courses in those areas? It's vitally important that we support these, not just in the Llynfi valley, but throughout Wales, because we will need these skills, we will need these young people constructively engaged as they go through school, and, if it isn't the traditional curriculum, then giving these opportunities is a really great way forward. So, how can he give more support to these non-traditional routes to engage with young people?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Huw Irranca-Davies, for that question. I very much welcome schools and institutions like Maesteg comprehensive and Neath Port Talbot College in that example, I think, working together to give that hands-on training in vocational areas like construction. There are other examples in the Swansea Bay City Deal skills and talent project and the Tech Valleys STEM project in Blaenau Gwent as well.
Last year, mindful of the fact that I think there is more that we can and should be doing in this area, I asked Hefin David to undertake a review of how education to employment, if you like, transitions, work in schools, and in colleges as well. Part of that is about learning how children and young people are supported, if you like, in their experience and understanding of the world of work and the kinds of skills that they need in the way that you're describing. So, I hope to be able to say a little bit more about that in the next few weeks, but congratulations to Maesteg and NPTC for the work that they're doing together.

Tom Giffard AS: And to build on the point that Huw Irranca-Davies made there: obviously, the construction sector is an incredibly important sector for our economy and for our young people to engage with, as Huw Irranca-Davies correctly identified.
The Construction Industry Training Board have said that over 9,000 extra workers will be required just to meet construction demand in Wales by 2027, so that's quite a lot of people in quite a short space of time. Can I ask, Minister: do you agree with that assessment of those figures required, and what is the plan to get there, because it's a lot of people, as I say, in a very short amount of time? So, how are we going to get those construction workers for the future that we need today?

Jeremy Miles AC: I work very closely with the Minister for Economy, and our portfolios come together in this particular area. A significant amount of that is to make sure that the vocational qualifications we are offering are able to support the young people to do the jobs of the future. So, whether that's in relation to the vocational qualifications review, which is currently under way, or the investment we've made into personal learning accounts, which can support those at a later point in their learning journey, that's very much the focus of those interventions. I think it's really critical that both through the work that further education colleges do with their local economy, as well as the work of things like the regional skills partnerships, we have a very clear understanding of what the pipeline of skills is that's required, and sometimes that requires us to work in very innovative and much more nimble ways than perhaps we've had to do in the past, and absolutely, that is our priority.

Question 5, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to declare an interest, as my husband is a professor in Swansea University and is a member of the University and College Union.

Higher Education Sector

Sioned Williams MS: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote social partnership in the higher education sector in South Wales West? OQ59263

Jeremy Miles AC: The Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill fulfils a programme for government commitment to place social partnership on a statutory footing in Wales. As it is a significant employment sector, we are keen to ensure that higher education is represented on the statutory social partnership council, and the Bill provides for that.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch. The recently published Welsh Government innovation strategy recognises how crucial universities are in driving research and development, but the University and College Union have warned that excessive workloads are impacting all levels of staff, with 60-hour weeks being common, and high numbers reporting strain, and these issues are especially affecting those on low-pay precarious contracts, such as postgraduate researchers. University staff have been left with no choice but to take industrial action, and Plaid Cymru stands in solidarity with UCU members on strike this week.
So, what conversations is the Welsh Government having with HE management to lobby them to bring a serious pay offer to the negotiations, resolve the recurring pensions dispute with a proposal for Wales, and to improve terms and conditions? Will you commit to collaborating with unions to tackle these issues causing staff to leave the sector—and often our country? And in particular, Swansea University UCU have called for a five-way meeting between the universities, the governing bodies, UCU, and the Welsh and Westminster Governments to seek urgent bridging funding for the research staff made redundant this month as a result of withdrawal of structural funds, and to plan ahead for a knowledge economy insulated from stop-start funding policies. So, what has been the Welsh Government's response to that initiative?

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I just say that the Member makes an important point in her question? I speak with UCU regularly in any event, but I was able to attend their conference, their congress, a couple of weeks ago, and to discuss with them at first-hand some of the concerns that they raised, and one of the points specifically that we touched on was, in fact, the innovation strategy.
She asks about my position. When I talk to vice-chancellors, I make it very clear I want there to be a negotiated settlement. I want to make sure that we're supporting staff and students to continue to make sure that Wales has the strong and successful HE sector that we have. I very much hope that they will be able to reach a successful negotiated outcome.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, unlike the Welsh Government's narrow definition of social partnership, which is little more than giving voice to their trade union masters, true social partnership puts people and social inclusion at the heart of decision making. The social partnership network brings together higher education institutions who share common values related to lifelong learning and social mobility. It is a commitment to creating strategies and activities that contribute to a more diverse higher education system. Together, the networks show that collaboration with like-minded organisations is an effective way to reach new learners who might think that university-level study is not for them. Minister, will you be promoting this approach, rather than backing trade unions, which are about to embark on a series of strikes that will damage the education of students across South Wales West?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I reject the premise of the question, and I'm not going to take any lessons on social partnerships from a Conservative. If you want to look to see what Conservatives do when they are asked to try and resolve disputes with trade unions, you can just look over the border. The answer is: they don't do anything to try and resolve them. The approach that we've—

Altaf Hussain AS: I'm asking about Wales.

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I know what you're asking and I'm describing to you the alternative universe in which a Conservative Government is asked to deal with these questions and fails. [Interruption.] In Wales, what we do is we work in social partnership, and I reject the description he gives of that. It is a respectful partnership; it is a transparent partnership. There are difficult issues to work through, and they can only successfully be worked through with an open, creative approach to negotiation. They can't be resolved by refusing to engage and, indeed, bringing forward legislation that undermines people's democratic rights to strike. If he has an opportunity to bring to bear his obvious passion for social partnership on his colleagues in Westminster, I would very much encourage him to do that.

Educational Standards

Peter Fox AS: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the Welsh Government’s budget on educational standards? OQ59257

Jeremy Miles AC: The Welsh Government's education budget sets out our continued commitment to implementing our programme of educational reform, ensuring that educational inequalities narrow and standards rise.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you for that response, Minister. Minister, as you know, our standards, sadly, in Wales are far below those in England and Scotland, with Wales sitting at the bottom of Britain's GCSE and Programme for International Student Assessment rankings. Welsh Government has chosen not to spend all of the money it could on education, even though our system is underperforming. Indeed, your budget this year cut the education and Welsh language budget in real terms, alongside an actual cut of £43 million in cash terms. I know the stock answer is to blame the UK Government for funding, but the fact remains that education is devolved and matters of your Government present choices for you to make. With this in mind, Minister, and noting the reduction in funding here, what practical steps are you taking to rectify the shortcomings in Wales in order to deliver the educational outcomes that children and young people deserve here?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I think this is bold, coming from a member of the party that is the only party in Wales to campaign at an Assembly election to cut the education budget by 12 per cent. It's quite something. It is quite something, and it shows just how shallow their commitment to the facts is. Just to be— [Interruption.] You absolutely did, and it was defended by Andrew R.T. Davies subsequently. So, the facts are, Peter Fox—[Interruption.]

I would like to hear the answer from the Minister.

Jeremy Miles AC: Peter Fox has asked for the facts. The facts are these: the funding that we received as a Barnett consequential from Westminster was passported fully on to local authorities, and not only that, it was increased through the education budget. So, in Wales, unlike what happens in Conservative England, where the budget for post-COVID intervention has completely disappeared, we have not only—[Interruption.] We have made choices, and I'm telling you what choices we've made. I'm proud of them. The choices are: to protect the funding that best supports our schools. So, as well as passporting on the consequential, we increased the funding to schools in my budget. So, whether that's the pupil development grant, whether it's the post-COVID funding, that funding has been protected or increased. So, those are the facts. They're inconvenient for him. But until we have a Government in Westminster that is as committed as we are to properly funding public services, the challenges to which he points in his questions, I'm afraid, are going to continue.

Commemoration of Eileen and Trefor Beasley

Adam Price AC: 7. What consideration has the Minister given to commemorating Eileen and Trefor Beasley's contribution to the battle over rights to services through the medium of Welsh? OQ59262

Jeremy Miles AC: The emphasis on the history of Wales in the new curriculum will give young people an opportunity to learn more about the history of our language. Due to the efforts of people like the Beasleys and others, the linguistic landscape of Wales has been transformed. Hundreds of organisations now provide Welsh-medium services.

Adam Price AC: The stand taken by the Beasleys, more than anything, was the spark that began the modern language movement and provided the rights that we have today as a result. Unfortunately, the cottage in Llangennech, which was at the centre of all of this, stands empty today, as it was on that day when the bailiffs took the Beasleys' furniture away in response to their refusal to pay rates. Is there an opportunity here for us to be creative and to create a living memorial to the Beasleys and their role in the history of our language, but also a centre that would immerse young people and adults in the Welsh language and in the broader culture of Wales?
And looking at the bigger picture, the west Wales Valleys, where we are both from—and we're very grateful for the additional funding that's being invested in developing the language in this area—is there an opportunity to develop a residential Urdd centre in that area? We have a residential centre in rural Wales and here in the city; is there an opportunity for us to celebrate the unique contribution of the western Valleys to the story and the future of the Welsh language by creating a centre there too?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you very much to Adam Price for those important points. I acknowledge, of course, the important contribution made by campaigners such as Eileen and Trefor Beasley to the story of the language, and their stance has been very important in that history. I understand that there are calls, including today, to turn the property into a cultural centre of some sort. It's worth also considering other options and possibilities for the property to commemorate the contribution made by those two individuals. If there's interest in the local community in developing the property, then I would be eager for them to contact my officials to see what is possible. This scheme could fit into the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' too, so I'd encourage them to get in touch.

Cost-of-Living Pressures

Joyce Watson AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to help students with cost of living pressures? OQ59270

Jeremy Miles AC: Living costs should never be a barrier to studying at university, which is why, despite continuing budget pressures, the Welsh Government has ensured that the value of support has increased significantly by 9.4 per cent in line with the national living wage—news that was welcomed by National Union of Students Wales on behalf of its student membership.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I'm sure that, like me, you are concerned by the news over the weekend that one in five students at Russell Group universities have considered dropping out over the cost of living. I returned to education as an adult, and at the same time trying to raise a young family. It was difficult enough then. I haven't got a clue how people are going to cope now. You have mentioned, of course, the 9.4 per cent increase in student maintenance support compared with the paltry 2.8 per cent for students in England. Ahead of that in September, is there anything else that you have on the table that we can offer support to those students with?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank Joyce Watson for that important supplementary, and I recognise there's a particular challenge sometimes, as she was saying, for people going back to education perhaps later on in life. I know that she shares my pride in the fact that we are committed to making sure that, whether you're studying full time or part time, you have access to the same support pro rata, which I think has meant that many more students have been able to study part time and manage to balance the competing demands that she referred to in her question. I am in ongoing discussion with the sector to make sure that all options to support students impacted by the cost-of-living crisis are considered. I met on the weekend with the president of the NUS in Wales to discuss some further concerns that they were raising with me.
Joyce Watson will know that in addition to having the most supportive student finance regime in any part of the UK, perhaps a less well known aspect of that is that we make provision to cancel up to £1,500 of maintenance loan debt for each undergraduate student, so we always look at finding the most supportive and progressive way of spending the funding that we have. She will also know about the funding that we made available through the Higher Education Funding Council Wales to higher education institutions to fund some of the well-being pressures that have arisen in the context of the cost-of-living pressures. But we will continue to work with the sector to do all that we can together.

Welsh-Medium Post-16 Education

Alun Davies AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on the opportunities available for entering Welsh-medium post-16 education? OQ59265

Jeremy Miles AC: Increasing opportunities allowing people to continue to learn through Welsh is crucially important. That's why we're investing additional funding to expand post-16 Welsh-medium delivery. We're doing this jointly withPlaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement.

Alun Davies AC: I appreciate the Minister's response. We have, for some time, talked about the Welsh-medium education continuum at school, but I'm concerned about the transition from education in school and then the post-16 period in FE college, universities and so on. I welcomed your statement a few years ago to offer an additional role for the coleg Cymraeg to secure additional investment, if you will, in post-16 education. But what are your plans to ensure that there is continuity available from school and then post 16? Because Welsh-medium education post 16 is vitally important if we are to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers.

Jeremy Miles AC: I agree entirely with that. In the Member's own area, the Blaenau Gwent Welsh in education strategic plan includes specific targets and challenging targets, in the local context, to increase the number of post-16 learners studying Welsh as a subject and studying through the medium of Welsh in a wider range of subjects, including—and I'll just refer back to the question from Huw Irranca-Davies earlier, and this is perhaps more challenging—vocational qualifications. The track record in that area is less succesful, perhaps. But this is hugely important.
One of the things that we are doing is ensuring that we understand how the language continuum works in terms of qualifications in schools and then what's available once statutory education is left, and we understand the milestones, so that the pathway to continue to learn the language is clearly set out and accesible. But in addition to that, as the Member mentioned in his question, there's the investment in the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, which is making a difference on the ground in terms of provision. But workforce issues are still a challenge, in terms of ensuring that we have a workforce available for this, and this is part of the 10-year plan, as the Member knows. And also, in a few weeks' time, the new curriculum resource company, Adnodd, will begin its work. As part of that company's mission, they will commission specific resources to support the post-16 sector, and we're working with stakeholders at the moment to identify the needs in that area.

And finally, question 10, Luke Fletcher.

Discussions between Local Authorities and Schools

Luke Fletcher AS: 10. What is the Welsh Government doing to facilitate discussions between local authorities and schools during this period of severe financial hardship? OQ59253

Jeremy Miles AC: Local authorities are required by law to have an established school forum, and the purpose of a school forum is to help develop informed and confident dialogue between local authorities and their schools, including, importantly, on budgetary issues.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: A few weeks ago, a £2.12 million cut to Bridgend council's school budget was announced, meaning an increased risk of redundancies. Worryingly, of course, Bridgend is a microcosm of what seems to be happening throughout Wales at the moment. In November, Heledd Fychan highlighted the National Association of Head Teachers survey, which said just 5 per cent of schools say they will be able to pay their costs in the next academic year without going into deficit. Minister, you mentioned, in response to Heledd Fychan about discussions with schools, about stretching reserves as far as they will go. So, could I ask if the Minister will update us on those discussions and whether the Minister has considered any mid to long-term solutions, perhaps in collaboration with local authorities, to the acute budgetary pressures facing schools?

Jeremy Miles AC: In the next financial year, the South Wales West region of the Member will receive £945 million in settlement funding, and Wales as a whole sees an increase of 7.9 per cent in settlement funding over last year on a like-for-like basis. These increases are higher than the vast majorityof increases for local authorities over recent years, which shows the continuing priority that we as a Government attach to making sure that local authority budgets, and in my case, of course, the budgets available to schools, are as high as they can be, despite the very, very real pressures that I know the Member appreciates the Welsh Government's budget is also under. Obviously, how those budgets are allocated is a matter for local authorities, but he will also know that authorities have given assurances, in particular, for example, in the context of the recent discussions with teaching unions in relation to industrial action, and there has been a transparent process that has sought to provide as much information as possible about how schools will be funded.
He mentioned the point about reserves. It is an important part of the funding landscape in the short term. Typically, no Government would be encouraging authorities to explore the use of reserves, because they're there for particular purposes. I think, in the particular circumstances that we're in, which is that over the COVID period the profile of funding and expenditure in schools was very, very different, and that has built up a historically high level of reserves—. But I want to be very clear that I do not regard that as part of the long-term solution, because those funds, once used, are used. So, they are there to alleviate pressure in the short term rather than the long term, but they're still important in playing that role.

Thank you, Minister.

5. Topical Questions

No topical questions were accepted this afternoon.

6. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Dental Reform

We'll move on to item 6, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on dental reform. I call on the Minister to make the statement—Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd.The oral health response to 'A Healthier Wales' set out how oral health and dental services in Wales would continue to develop in line with the changing needs of the population. Our vision for dentistry builds on the philosophy of prudent healthcare and fully recognises that system change is required. Dentistry has been one of the more difficult services to recover following the COVID-19 pandemic and this explains, in part, why people experience difficulty accessing NHS dental care. But dental reform is progressing at pace, and I’d like to take the opportunity today to set out how this Government is increasing access to NHS dental care for those that most need it.
I turn first to access for people who have not been able to get a place at an NHS dental practice. I have heard statements recently saying that NHS dentistry is now a two- or three-tiered system. The fact is that there has always been a private dental system, available to those who choose to use it and can afford it. Private healthcare is an established alternative, and whilst we might aspire to provide NHS dental care for everyone, in reality some will prefer to go private, creating a divided market.
Access for people who have not regularly attended the dentist has always been a problem since registration was removed with the inception of the UDA contract in 2006. We have recognised that this is a problem, and have implemented a contract variation for this year, which has been adopted by 80 per cent of Welsh dental practices, with a requirement to give access to new patients. Around 140,000 new patients have now been seen since April 2022, significantly more than we had anticipated. So, we are not presiding over the creation of a tiered system. Instead, we are actively increasing access for the people that were excluded under the previous UDA contract model. We recognise there is more to do, and we will continue with this approach in the next financial year.
There are claims that this change has meant that people who have visited the dentist regularly are being disadvantaged as they can no longer get their twice-yearly check-ups. Members will be interested to know that the NICE guidelines published in 2004—18 years ago—recommended that people with healthy mouths could safely go as long as 24 months between check-ups. The unit of dental activity contract does nothing to enforce these guidelines, and effectively rewards dental practices for seeing patients more often than they need to. Again, this is being addressed through the variation offer, where practices are now remunerated for seeing patients based on a patient's individual risk and needs basis.
Fundamentally, we need to reimagine NHS dental services along that risk and needs-based approach, using our much-strained financial resource to provide care and treatment for those that need it most. And that's why we're doing a reform of the dental contract. It's a fundamental change for both patients and the dental profession, where we can, and will, do more to ensure that the change is acceptable and understood by all.
Another narrative circulating is that many, many dentists are handing back their contracts and turning to private dentistry only. There are some examples of this, but the reality is that there were 413 contracts in operation on 1 April 2022, and during this year, fewer than 20 have been handed back, for reasons such as retirement, practice sale or to go private. In monetary terms, this equates to around 3 per cent of annual expenditure on GDS. It’s important to remember that this funding is not lost but remains with the health board for it to consider how best to replace the services lost. I realise it can be disconcerting for patients when a practice closes or turns to private only, but I can assure them that those services will be replaced. But there will inevitably be a gap in provision during reprocurement. It's encouraging that the vast majority of contract handbacks, particularly the larger ones, are being successfully recommissioned, so this shows that there's an appetite for dentists to take on new NHS dental contracts.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd also like to update Members on how we're working on the unique challenge that rurality creates for our dental services. One issue is the workforce. Sometimes, it's difficult to recruit people into rural areas, and we know that people are more likely to settle where they complete their training. Using the ‘Train. Work. Live.’ dental campaign this year, which is launching next week, HEIW have put together an enhanced offer that aims to encourage future dental trainees to complete their foundation year in dental practices in rural Wales rather than towns and cities. Dentists who accept this offer will receive a £5,000 salary uplift. They will also receive additional academic and well-being support for the duration of the programme. This will help to increase access to NHS care for local people in rural Wales.
Finally, in terms of children, I am committed to ensuring that they can access dental services, particularly in those areas where it's more difficult to access a dental appointment. We have the Designed to Smile scheme for children up to seven years of age, and we know that this has had a very positive effect since its inception 13 years ago. This programme normalises the habit of tooth brushing and provides direct fluoride application for children.
But the age group of children I really want to focus on next is secondary school age, because this is the formative age when children start to make more independent choices around what they eat and drink. During the spring, we will be trialling the use of a mobile dental unit on the site of Ysgol Y Moelwyn in Blaenau Ffestiniog. Over a number of weeks, all children at the school will have an opportunity to see a dentist and receive any treatment they may need to take care of their oral health. I think this is a really exciting development, and if it is successful, it could be a cost-effective way of delivering dental care directly into schools in our most deprived areas. It would also reduce demand on general dental services and community dental services. But, more importantly, it would provide much-needed care and treatment without impacting on children's schoolwork or requiring parents to take time off work.
In closing, and to reassure Membersthat dentistry is one of my top priorities, I want to develop an NHS dental service that is fair for dentists and that meets the needs of the population, one that is based on preventative principles, and provides everybody with an opportunity to take responsibility for their own oral health. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Russell George AC: I thank the Minister for her statement today. Quite early on in your statement, Minister, you talked about the fact that you've heard some people saying that there is now a two or three-tiered system. Well, I'm one of those people who have made that comment, and we've made that comment in our report from the Health and Social Care Committee. I'm just wondering whether you've perhaps misunderstood, or what is behind that statement. And you also say that, in reality, some people will prefer to go private, creating a market divide. I would suggest—and I want to check if you think this is fair—that it's not so much that people prefer to go private, it's that people have to go private, because there's no other alternative for them because they can't access an NHS dentist.
So, perhaps just to gauge your assessment on that, but perhaps to explain the three-tiered system from my perspective. Some people can access an NHS dentist; some people will go private, but there'll be some people who can't afford an NHS dentist and they cannot also access an NHS dentist either. Therefore, there is a potential three-tiered system. So, I just want to ask: do you recognise what is meant by a potential three-tiered system?
I think, today, if you don't answer all my questions, answer this one: from a patient's perspective, when will we get to a position where every person in Wales, every resident in Wales, will be able to access an NHS dentist without having to make up to a three-hour round trip? Because that's what we once had; when I first got elected, that's what we had. But when will we get to that position? Give us a date when that will be achieved by, so I can answer constituents who raise these issues with me.
Now, the British Dental Association have warned that the very concept of NHS dentistry could cease to exist, and they have warned that dentists have described being on the brink of handing back NHS contracts due to stress and concerns about patients' aftercare. That's not me saying that—that's the British Dental Association. And they said in their—. The chair of the British Dental Association wrote to me shortly before the statement was originally scheduled, and what he said, quite frankly, startled me. What he said then was, or what they said, was that the messages have been deeply buried whenever Government answers are given to questions in the Senedd Plenary debates, and that the tone of the Government's replies have been growing noticeably colder towards dentists over the last year.So, I think my question is: why do you think, Minister, that you have alienated a key stakeholder and representative group like this? You no doubt disagree with what they say—perhaps you can tell us that—but tell me why you think that there's been such a divide with the BDA.How many times have you met with the BDA, it'd be interesting to know, since you've come into post? And, how do you respond to their claims, backed up by testimony as well—testimony that I've also heard myself—that the reforms make NHS dentistry a financial risk for professionals?
Now, it is, of course, totally understandable from my perspective, Minister, that you want to orientate policy towards widening access to patients—that's what we all want; I agree with that, of course. And, after all, we are in a position in Wales where we have the least accessible dentistry in the UK. But the BDA's recent survey of high-street dentists tells us that more than a third would reduce their NHS contracts this year, while 13 per cent said that they would hand back their contracts entirely. Now, to finish, I've heard what you've said, Minister; you've talked about it being a very different picture, and about relatively few contracts being handed back. And you’ve talked about there being an appetite for dentists to obtain new NHS contracts, but that doesn’t feel like reality to me, because in my own health board area—not only in my own constituency, but in the entirety of Powys—not one dentist offers entry for a new NHS patient. My colleague Sam Rowlands has done similar research in north Wales. So, what you’re saying in your statement today doesn’t match reality, and I want to try and understand why that is.
Finally, perhaps you could give us an initial assessment of some of the recommendations and the work and report from the Health and Social Care Committee as well. I’m hoping to extract some initial views on the work of our committee.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Russell. I think what I tried to make clear in my opening statement is that, actually, there is—we’ve acknowledged that there is—a multitier system. I mean, this is not something new. It has always been the case, that there has been an NHS system and there’s been a private system. So I absolutely recognise that; I wasn’t trying to deny that that’s the case. And whilst I accept that some people say that they can’t afford an NHS dentist, and I completely understand that, in reality, about 50 per cent of people in Wales are eligible for free dental care. That’s the situation as it is at the moment. [Interruption.] It’s 50 per cent of—

Let the Minister answer, because I have many people who wish to speak, and the longer people intervene—well, you can’t intervene, but the longer people speak from sedentary positions, someone’s not going to be able to ask their question.

Eluned Morgan AC: So, about 45 per cent of the patients who receive NHS dental treatment at the moment are exempt from patient charges as it is, and then, when patients are charged, if you look at how much they’re charged in Wales compared to England, on band 1, people are charged £14.70 in Wales while, in England, it’s £23.80; on band 2, it's £47 in Wales, £65.20 in England. So, we recognise that, actually, also, we do need to make sure that there’s an ability for those who are not eligible for free treatment, especially during a cost-of-living crisis, that we’ve frozen the amount that people have to pay.
I think dentists, we’ve got to understand, are private contractors. We can’t force them to work for the NHS. So, whilst I’d love to say to you, Russell, ‘Of course we want to offer this to everybody’, I simply don’t have the power to do that, because they have to decide whether they want to pick up this option or not. Now, what we have to do is to work with them to see how far we can go with this, and the reality is that, actually, certainly this year, 80 per cent of them have picked up that new contract. What we’ve found is that when we’ve put out those contracts, they have been returned, and actually there’s an appetite to take them up. So, it may be that it’ll be different next year, but our current experience is telling us that, actually, the appetite is there. And whilst they did suggest, for example, that they were a bit upset, that they needed more time to consider the contract, I think we’ve learnt from that last year, which is why the contract variation offer this year was issued before Christmas. So, they’ve had more time to do that.
Obviously, I’m meeting with the British Dental Association in the next couple of weeks, and let me tell you that in Powys, 3,392 new patients have been seen this year.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the statement and for giving us prior sight of it. But I have to say that it’s an astonishing statement in many ways, and I’m afraid that it doesn’t seem to reflect the reality of the dental service or patient experience at any level. It’s another one of these statements that gives the impression either that everything is fine or that there are problems, but those problems are in hand—when all of the evidence before us demonstrates that that isn’t the case. The signs were poor early on in the statement when the Minister said:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: ‘Dentistry has been one of the more difficult services to recover following the COVID-19 pandemic and explains, in part, why people experience difficulty accessing NHS dental care.’

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That’s completely disingenuous, I’m afraid. Of course COVID brought huge challenges to dentistry, as was the case with all health and care services. But the issues in dentistry were very serious indeed before COVID hit. And things are getting worse; I am going to quote once again.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I have heard statements recently saying that NHS dentistry is now a two or three-tiered system, and the fact is that there has always been a private dental system—an established alternative. I think that many people will find it staggering to hear a Labour Minister referring so casually to that very real divide between the haves and have-nots. The Minister refers there to just the two-tier system: the haves and have-nots. She can include me on that list of people who have been describing a three-tier system, which she chose not to address.
Perhaps I can explain what we mean by that third tier. It’s not around the affordability of NHS treatment. There are people who can afford to go private. There are people who can’t afford to go private and have NHS treatment. And then there are people who can’t access NHS treatment at all. That is the third tier. A lot of what is driving that lack of access is the growth that there has been in the private sector. People are going private and increasing that private sector precisely because they cannot get access to NHS dental care. This is a vicious cycle and it is getting worse.
When I hear dentists saying that there will not be an NHS dental service in Wales in a few years, do you know what? It’s not hard to believe when you look at the trajectory that we are currently on. We are not creating a tiered system, the Minister says. Well, this Government is presiding over a broken three-tiered system, and entrenching it day by day.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Now, the Minister refers to contractual changes, which were intended to enhance access to NHS services. She says that 140,000 new patients had been seen. On the face of it, of course, that sounds positive, but it's entirely clear that this is not sustainable.I was speaking yesterday to a dentist who is entirely committed to the NHS, who had succeeded in hitting that target and registered hundreds of new patients. But the process had been so onerous—and had placed so much strain on staff—and it still didn't provide them with the incentive to work in a preventative way, as they would want that they have decided to hand a third of their NHS contract back for next year, exacerbating the problem.
The Minister later says that few contracts have been handed back to the health service. That's one that the Minister isn't aware of. My constituency has lost one in three NHS dentists in a year. The Minister suggests, when that's happening, that there's no problem in having new providers, I can tell the Minister that Betsi Cadwaladr health board, and I will quote them—they are not confident that they can find new providers.
I will use all my time here. There is so much that I could be saying. The Minister constantly repeats that the answer is to see people less often, suggesting that the problem that we have is that people are opposing that. Now, I don't see any opposition to that. I see people who are more than happy to follow the new guidance and to see patients less often. The problem that we have is a lack of sustainability. There is hardly any talk here of training more dentists. We need that for sustainability. We need more private dentists to return to the NHS.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I am going to refer in my very last seconds, Deputy Presiding Officer, to the last statement from the Minister.
'In closing, to reassure Members that dentistry is one of my top priorities, I want to develop an NHS dental service in Wales that is fair for dentists'—
it clearly isn't; they are leaving in droves—
'delivers for the risk and needs of the population'—
clearly, it's not doing that—
'underpinned by prevention principles'—
dentists are screaming to be able to work in a preventative way—
'which will enable everyone to take responsibility for their own oral health.'
Well, I agree with the Minister on that, because that's all that people can do currently.

Eluned Morgan AC: Look, I accept that everything is not perfect. I accept that there is a huge way to go in this very difficult area. But, as I reiterate, we do not employ these people directly. They are independent practitioners, and we have to convince them to come with us on the journey.
Now, it is true to say that COVID has impacted the work that they were able to do before.They're not back to what they were doing pre pandemic, and that's because they have to take account of the extra issues in relation to the potential for COVID to carry. So, there are more restrictions than there were pre pandemic.
Our contractdoes shift people from the haves to the have-nots. That's precisely what we're trying to do. There are people who haven't been able to see dentists for years on end, and now 140,000 of them have had access for the first time. So, that's not something that's happening in England. We've changed this contract, and England are looking at our model now to see what they can learn from us. But, of course, we need to go further.
So, I think it's important for us to understand that it's not just about supply as well, it's also about affordability and transport issues and all of these other things. One of the things that I am a bit concerned about is we are seeing pockets where we're seeing concentrations where dentists have handed back the contracts. That is something that concerns me. Certainly, in the area that I represent, that is a concern, which is why, for example, in rural areas, we've put this £5,000 additional funding on the table. In Betsi, we've got these 26,000 extra appointments that have been given, and, crucially, as the First Minister mentioned this morning, we're developing this new dental school in north Wales.
Key to what we're trying to do here is to broaden the dental skill mix. You asked me about training—well, we've got now 67 new dental trainees, we've got 50 dental care trainees, we've got new hygienists and new therapists. All of these people will, we hope, contribute to that dental mix, and, obviously, we're speaking to the UK Government to make sure that they change the rules so that some of these people can not just open a dental appointment, but close it as well. That's been part of the problem—legally, that's not been possible within the rules currently.
I would reject that they are leaving in droves. They are not leaving in droves. There is no evidence to suggest they're leaving in droves. We've got 80 per cent of people who've signed up to the new contracts. I gave you the figures: over 420 or so who we had pre pandemic, and only 20 have handed back. Those are the figures, those are the facts. You might not like the facts, you might—[Interruption.] Well, they haven't handed it back yet, and, as I'm saying, let's keep the conversation going, which is why I'm very keen to make sure that I have a real understanding of the concerns of the dental workforce and why I'm meeting them very soon.

I have many Members who wish to speak, understandably, on this issue, because it affects all of our constituencies, including mine. But if you please keep to your one minute, we can get everybody in to ask theirquestion. John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I wonder if you could address a situation that occurred in my constituency in Caldicot, where, in October last year, an NHS dentist wrote out to their 10,000 NHS patients telling them they were reducing the number to 2,500 effective from 1 January this year, and all of those 10,000 would have to reapply for an NHS place if they wanted one. So, that led to a situation of great concern amongst the local community, and the position now is that most of the people affected who haven't remained as NHS patients with that practice have to travel several miles to access NHS dentistry, or they have registered as private patients. Some will now have unmet dental need because they are not in a position, as vulnerable people, to travel the distance required for NHS treatment and, of course, they can't pay privately.
One other matter, Minister, which is that I have a 13-year-old girl who has been told she will have to wait three years to have braces fitted, and I wonder if you could say something about that situation. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I recognise that there are individual circumstances, and there are 20 of those that we have to consider, and that's why they've gone. But, as I say, what happens is that you don't lose the NHS dental appointments there; they are re-tendered, they go to somebody else. Now, what I recognise is that that may mean that people aren’t able to access what used to be in their community and they have to go further afield. And that creates another barrier to access, and I do think that is something that I’m particularly concerned with, and I’m particularly concerned around children—as you’ve mentioned; you’ve got that one case. But what I’m interested in now is to see, look, actually, can we think about creating a new kind of model here. In particular, let’s have a look at children.
So, through this pilot that we’re running in north Wales, a mobile unit goes into the school, sees every child in the school. We don’t necessarily need a dentist; we can use dental therapists to do this work. And I think it’ll be really interesting to see how that works out, and, if that does work out, I think that is a model that I’d like to seriously consider rolling out across the whole of Wales.
I do think—. Listen, it’s really difficult—orthodontic procedures, that’s always a challenge, and I think there are some real challenges around that in terms of the costs and all kinds of things. We all have to consider, I think, in future, where we’re going to be in terms of costs in future, because there are some real challenges ahead of us. There are massive restrictions on the budget coming down the line, and we need to consider very carefully what our priorities are going to be in future.

James Evans MS: I’m not going to go over what other people have said, Minister, but I want to pick something out of your statement that I think is very positive and I think it’s around children and the pilot that you’re doing in Blaenau Ffestiniog of bringing the mobile dentist unit actually into schools. What I’d like to know is some questions around that. How long is that trial going to last in Blaenau Ffestiniog? How long is the Welsh Government going to take to do the evaluation around that, and when can we see that being rolled out right across Wales? Because there are certain parts of my constituency where this is needed, and the sooner it can come, the better.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I’m on a mission with this, so I’m really keen to see this. This is something that I’ve very much tried to drive forward. What I’m keen to do is to make sure that we have at least a six-month roll-out of the programme and see how that goes, and then, obviously, we’ll have to look at the evaluation. But what was beneficial in Blaenau Ffestiniog is that, actually, we knew that Betsi had these mobile units that we could use, and also we’ve had to check that the school has access to the right power supplies and water supplies and all of those other things. So, there are some technical and practical things that we have to consider before we’re able to roll it out to every school in Wales. And obviously, there’ll be a price on this, but, actually, what, effectively, we will be doing is shifting resources into schools, rather than seeing people being seen in the community.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m afraid the content of your statement doesn’t correspond in the very least with what I hear from patients and dentists in the Arfon constituency. According to a survey of dentists across the north of Wales, 88 per cent believe that they don’t have the capacity to see the new patients expected under the new contract. Ninety-six per cent say that the patients that they already have give negative feedback and complain about the lack of access to dental care. It appears to me that dentists are drowning in the workload that they face as a result of targets that cannot be met. Can I ask you therefore whether the new contracts set far too high an ambition for dentists? And you say that you will be having discussions on contracts for 2024-25 and onwards from then, but, as a result of all of the concerns that we do hear about, will you make a commitment this afternoon to review these contracts without delay, please?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, the fact is that these dentists have already delivered to a great extent. What I asked was that they shift from seeing people who have healthy mouths and seeing them regularly, as was the case in the past—. Around 60 per cent people have healthy teeth, and they, according to NICE, don’t need to see a dentist more than once every two years. Now, that's what the NICE guidelines say—they're not our guidelines. So, we've worked on the basis that, even if 20 per cent of those see a dentist less often, you do reach a point where you can provide opportunities for new people to see dentists for the first time. So, I do think that we're moving in the right direction, and, of course, in north Wales, what we will see with the new academy, which will open for six days a week from the autumn onwards—they will have an opportunity to see 12,000 to 15,000 patients annually.

Jane Dodds AS: I am guilty as charged; I am one of those who've used the phrase 'two-tier system', and let me tell you why, because I think it's really important. I do acknowledge that NICE guidelines have changed—I think we all do; we all hear that. I know there needs to be a skill mix in dentistry, and I think that's accepted. There have always been dental charges for adults in the past. I remember that a while ago. I know there has been a private health system in dentistry, just as there is in any health system. But what I don't understand is how that matches with what I am, and it seems others are, hearing day after day, time after time. And I think, Minister, part of that is that there just seems to be a resistance to seeing the reality. The reality is what we're hearing: it's people going to dentists, like the one that John Griffiths said, and them saying, 'I'm sorry, you have to de-register and then register again, in a queue'; the reality that families are told, 'I'm really sorry, but we're now a private healthcare practice.' I really think that one of the things that would be really valuable is that we look at how we can bring together everything across the board and not have that two-tier system. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I acknowledge there's a two-tier system. I've made that absolutely clear. There always has been. And in an ideal world, I would love it if we could get to a system where everybody was able to access an NHS dentist. But, actually, it's very difficult to find dentists. That's the first thing. We're about to start a new campaign to see if we can attract more dentists from abroad. But, actually, I think we've got to rethink the model. I think we've got to think about how we use the skill mix in a very different way. And I also think that some of the figures that I've stated today, that's the reality. I'm giving you facts. Now, there's a lot of noise—I get that there's a lot of noise—but we're talking about 20 out of 420 practices handing back contracts. Now, it may be that more of them will say, 'Well, we didn't like that, so we're moving next year', but, as it stands currently, which is why I think we do need those conversations with dentists to make sure that we are landing in the right place on this—. But, this year, the fact is, we had a target of 114,000 new NHS dental appointments, and we've got 140,000. So, we've gone way beyond what we had as an ambition.
I just want to pay tribute to Jane for the work that you are doing, constantly and tirelessly, on dentistry, and I know one of the things that you've been pushing for is a dental registry, a national dental registry, and I just want to make it clear that we do hope that that will be something that we will be able to deliver in future, subject, obviously, to money, which is going to be a constant restraint on us in future.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, thank you for the statement, and I'm heartened that you state that dentistry is one of your top priorities. And even before COVID, it has had a long and chequered past since deregistration. I think we all realise that. For many of my constituents, NHS dentistry, though, still remains incomprehensible at times. I do welcome the many new initiatives in dentistry that you and Welsh Government have introduced, and those bearing fruit. That is welcomed, as are the new 140,000 patients now seen. I have, though, listened carefully to the concerns expressed by some dentists that, under the UDA model and the new model called 'metrics', the Government is still emphasising the number of different patients seen, and that there seems to be no credit for the specific course of treatment undertaken, i.e. no differentiation between either a complex bridge or a simple filling, and it's stated that the only credit given is that the individual patient was seen and has had a course of treatment. So, how would the Welsh Government respond to that observation, that this is still a rather crude form of analysis that does not concentrate the focus on the expertise of dentists and the skilled personalised work that they undertake? And what consultation, Minister, has been undertaken with the dentistry profession on this new and innovative model of working?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, you'll be aware that in Aneurin Bevan we've seen 24,500 new NHS patients being seen as a result of the new contract. The course of treatment undertaken, obviously, is something that I think we just need to make sure we've got that in the right place, and in terms of consultation, there has been very significant consultation. As I say, they've seen a copy of what is being proposed for next year before Christmas, so I hope that has given them enough time to consider it, and obviously we will be carrying on those conversations with the dental authorities.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward today's statement. As I highlighted to you last week, Minister, I recently contacted 69 NHS dentists in north Wales. I spoke to 57 of those practices last week, and it was just four who were taking on, but those four had huge waiting lists. What that highlighted to me is the significant challenge that my residents face in accessing an NHS dentist in north Wales.
Minister, I do welcome efforts being made to recruit more dentists. I certainly welcome those efforts being made, along with the trials of the use of the mobile dental units at schools, which, as my colleagues mentioned, could be cost-effective and certainly help reduce those waiting lists. But like others in the Chamber here today, I take particular exception to parts of your statement, and I quote, where you say,
'Private healthcare is an established and acceptable alternative,'
and you go on to say,
'in reality some will prefer to go private, creating a divided market.'
Just to be really clear from my side, and my residents, this is not something that most of my residents would prefer to do; it's something that they have to do because they cannot access those NHS dentists. What my residents would prefer is to be able to access NHS dentists, because they pay their national insurance, they pay their income tax, they pay their taxes, and they expect to get healthcare free at the point of service as a result of that. So, in light of this, Minister, and in light of your statement here today, do you think the measures you've highlighted here today will go far enough to address the concerns that my residents have in being able to access an NHS dentist?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, we are making efforts to recruit new dentists, and to be honest, Brexit didn't help the situation, and certainly I know a lot of eastern European dentists went home, following Brexit.
Just in terms of the issue about paying for dental treatment, I think it's really important to note that there are exemptions for people who can't afford to pay, and I can set out what those exemptions are if you'd like, but the fact is that everybody—. If you're not exempt, you do pay these charges. I think it's really important that people understand. This is not free, and it's really important that people understand that there is an expectation, in Wales, in England, in Scotland, in Northern Ireland, that actually you do have to pay for treatment.

Cefin Campbell MS: In response to an FOI that I submitted a few weeks ago, I was told that 11,000 people are waiting on a waiting list to register with an NHS dentist in the region that the two of us represent. Last year, the BBC conducted a survey across the UK, including our region, which showed that no NHS dentist had capacity to take on additional patients. So, whatever this statement might say about contracts, there is a great deal of discontent that exists. My dentist in Llandeilo—and I've been with an NHS dentist for several years—told me about three weeks ago that he is giving back his contract and he's going private. I looked to see whether there was any way that I could go to another NHS dentist. In Carmarthenshire there are over 3,500 on the waiting list. There's no hope for me. So, does the Minister agree with me, for families on a low income, is going private an 'acceptable alternative'?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, one of the things we're seekingto do, and Cefin will be aware of just how difficult it is to recruit people to rural Wales in the field of dentistry, and that does create greater issues in rural areas than it does in some of our more urban areas, perhaps, and that's why there are additional problems, I think, that we see in our region. I am certainly aware that Llandeilo is one of those places where they have handed the contract back—they're one of the 20. Others have done so in Haverfordwest, in Cardigan and in Fishguard. So, there is a cluster there, more or less, that are quite close together, and that does create additional difficulties, and that's why we've provided the additional £5,000 to try and tempt people to undertake their training in rural Wales.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I just emphasise therefore, we're talking—? In terms of our constituents who contact us, many do qualify for free treatment, but they can't find a dentist to do the work. That's the category we're talking about. And I haven't seen any clarity on that at all.
If I look at South Wales Central, here are some of the facts that have been provided by the British Dental Association: 18 per cent of dentists are likely to cease providing NHS services and go private only; 39 per cent to reduce the amount of work that they do for the NHS. May I ask specifically, therefore? You said that the data you have now may not reflect that, but this is what we're hearing and this is what's likely to happen, apparently.
So, can you give us some clarity as to how many have reduced their contractual requirements—not handed them back, but reduced them? We haven't had any clarity on that. I'm hearing more and more in my region about the complexities that dentists see because of the nature and the density of the problems that they treat. And some of the comments made by dentists are very cutting indeed. They need more time with these patients, and they are concerned that all of these changes will be prejudiced against areas with high levels of health needs.
Can I also ask whether your message today to the people of Wales is that everyone who can afford to go private for dental treatment should do so? Because that's what I'm hearing.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Heledd. Well, I think it is clear that those amongst the 140,000 who received an opportunity to have treatment for the first time in a long time, and those opportunities are available—we're paying for those. So, the contract ensures that there is an opportunity for them to receive the help that they need. So, if they are eligible for dentistry free of charge, then they will receive that service free of charge.
What we are seeing now is a situation where dentists have been treating people who need just a check-up—60 per cent of them need a check-up—and that's easy to do. Obviously, if you're seeing someone who hasn't been to the dentist for a while, for years, then you're bound to see more complications, and I understand, therefore, why that would create more difficulties for the dentists, and this is a strategy of ours that's quite clear. That's what we want to see. We want to see people who haven't had the opportunity to see a dentist in a long time get the chance, and those who don't need to see a dentist, because their mouths are healthy, that they don't see the dentist as often as they did, because the NICE guidelines say it's not necessary.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. Congratulations on the work you're doing to increase the number of people who are actually getting to see a dentist. That's really good news. I just wanted to go back to the mobile dental unit as the way of ensuring that all children get seen by somebody who’s appropriately qualified, because we know that the number of missing, filled or decayed teeth is a really good indicator of deprivation. We used to have a mobile dental unit in Llanedeyrn on the site of what is now the well-being centre in the Maelfa, which I know the Minister is familiar with. I just wondered whether we have more dental units. I haven't seen it since the pandemic; does it still exist, and, if so, how is it being deployed? Can it therefore be used to offer services to people in super-output areas of deprivation, where we know there are likely to be more missed decayed teeth?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks, Jenny. Well, I'm really excited about this new approach. I think this is something that I hope will work in Blaenau Ffestiniog. If we find that it does work, then obviously what we'll try and do is to target those areas of deprivation as a priority, to make sure that those people, perhaps, who haven't been in a situation where they've been able to access dentistry for a long time, and to get children into that situation where they understand that, actually, you do need to take responsibility for your own oral health. So, what we'll do is to see how this pilot turns out in north Wales and in the meantime look around to see where these other mobile dental units exist. So, Betsi had more than one available. So, we're just trying to map out where they exist, and then obviously we will need some money to make this happen, and obviously the money will need to be spent on staff, and we need to make sure that the staff are available. But what we're talking about here, as I say, are not necessarily dentists, but dental therapists and dental technicians, and it's precisely that approach of dental mix. If there is a complication, then you refer up to the dentist rather than see the dentist refer down, so it's turning the model on its head.

I thank the Minister.

7. The Packaging Waste (Data Collection and Reporting) (Wales) Regulations 2023

Item 7 has been withdrawn.

8. Legislative Consent Motion on the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Item 8 has been postponed until 21 March.

9. Debate: The Second Supplementary Budget 2022-23

So, item 9 is next, and it's the debate on the second supplementary budget for 2022-23. I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8206 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 20.30, approves the Second Supplementary Budget for the financial year 2022-23 laid in the Table Office on Tuesday, 14 February 2023.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch. This supplementary budget presents the Welsh Government's final spending plans for the current financial year. It increases the overall Welsh fiscal revenue and capital resources by £163 million, a 0.7 per cent increase on the position set out in the first supplementary budget, published in June 2022.
In the main, this small increase is driven by transfers from other Government departments for specific purposes, which includes the tariffs agreed to support those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine. We have also drawn down the maximum possible from the Wales reserve. By utilising all our unallocated reserves in this budget, our fiscal spending plans for revenue and capital have increased by a total of £412 million—a 2 per cent increase.
We have had to make hard choices given our competing priorities. In this budget, we have made allocations to the health and social services MEG and the education and Welsh language MEG of £120 million and £32 million respectively, to support pay settlements for NHS Wales staff and teachers.
Our NHS faces record demands and increased costs whilst still recovering from the pandemic. In recognition of this, we are allocating a package of £170 million; £21 million is being repurposed from other portfolios in order to support key front-line services and to protect the most vulnerable.
To support our ongoing humanitarian response to the war in Ukraine, we have allocated £92 million in addition to the £20 million provided in the first supplementary budget. Seventy-four million pounds of this has been received from the UK Government to support these costs.
I thank the committee for its consideration of this budget and the publication of its report, and I will provide a detailed response to its recommendations in due course. I ask Members to support the motion.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased to speak in this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee.
The committee scrutinised the second supplementary budget on 1 March, and I thank the Minister for her attendance at that meeting. The committee's report was laid before the Senedd yesterday, and the report makes seven recommendations and comes to three conclusions. On the whole, the committee welcomes the areas prioritised by the Welsh Government in this supplementary budget, and the approach taken by the Minister in managing the resources available as we near the end of the financial year. However, we have identified certain areas where improvements can be made, and I turn to these now.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'd like to begin by recognising the budgetary uncertainties caused by the ongoing disputes relating to public sector pay. We all hope for a swift resolution to those discussions and, above all else, regret the impact it's having on the staff themselves. However, this situation is placing significant pressure on delivery partners across public services. Worryingly, it has the potential to place unnecessary burdens on those sectors, as they seek to understand their financial position from one year to the next. We therefore call on the Minister to put controls in place so that delivery partners have as much clarity as possible about their financial position at the end of the financial year, given the impact from key pay awards remaining unknown. Because of this situation, the committee fully recognises that last-minute changes to budget allocations may be required this year. Although these may be unavoidable, we believe the Minister should be upfront about how such costs are covered within existing budgets. As a result, we have recommended that the Minister provides additional details of any significant last-minute allocations made between now and the end of the financial year.
Supporting the NHS, then. Turning to the impact of inflation on our key public services, while we welcome the steps taken through the supplementary budget to address pressures in the NHS, we are concerned with the deficit forecast for all but one of the local health boards. Although the committee is assured that the Welsh Government will not need to bail out health boards that go beyond their allocated budgets this year, we believe further steps can be taken to ensure that overspends do not arise in the first place. We therefore recommend that the Minister continues to monitor this situation closely and take measures to ensure that each health board does not exceed its funding over the rolling three-year periods, as required by the National Health Service Finance (Wales) Act 2014. Furthermore, where health boards are overspending in a single year, these should be funded from within the existing health and social services departmental budget.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we are all aware of the humanitarian impact the war in Ukraine is having, and we are thankful to our local authorities for providing crucial support and much-needed sanctuary for those who need it. However, it is unclear whether local services are sufficiently resilient to deal with the pressures placed upon them. As a result, we recommend that the Welsh Government provides local authorities with appropriate levels of support, and that support is provided consistently across Wales. We are also mindful that the resources to support Ukrainian refugees is highly dependent on funding provided centrally by the Treasury. We are therefore fully supportive of the Minister's efforts to ensure the continuation of existing funding levels from the UK Government.
The committee also welcomes the information provided in the Welsh Government's outturn report for 2021-22 on the balance of the Wales reserve. We have long called for these figures to be provided and are pleased to see it's available publicly. However, we believe the Minister can go further by regularly providing the Wales reserve balance, so that it would be included in future budget documentation. This would go some way to aid transparency in the area of the budget that is often opaque and difficult to monitor.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Finally, the committee was pleased to hear about the positive meetings held between the Minister and the latest UK Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Fiscal devolution works most effectively when harmonious inter-governmental relations exist, and we hope that the nature and spirit of these initial meetings will continue. As Members will know, this committee has time and again supported the Minister in her efforts with the Treasury to increase the size of the Wales reserve and borrowing limits, so that they are at least in line with inflation. We strongly agree with the Minister that the current rules are inherently unfair. It seems to us that local authorities have more discretion than the Welsh Government to carry over funding from one year to the next, and this is surely not right. The committee therefore reiterates its calls for the UK Government to increase the Welsh Government's overall and annual limits for borrowing and reserves, and for these limits to be reviewed regularly. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. I want to begin by highlighting a few points on health, and I'll touch on a few other areas as well. Firstly, I want to address the £120 million allocated to health and social services to support a pay settlement for NHS staff. While I and my Conservative colleagues welcome the increase in funding for the settlement, it is frustrating that the Welsh Government has had the money for this settlement all along. What is more frustrating is that the Welsh NHS spent approximately £260 million on agency and bank staff in 2021-22. If the Welsh Government had listened to our calls to establish a workforce plan years ago, there would be additional funding to support overworked NHS staff.
Under the second supplementary budget, the funding allocated towards mental health policies and legislation is £71.3 million, a reduction of £9.4 million compared to the first supplementary budget. We have consistently heard from Ministers that the supplementary budget focuses on priority areas, and so it is disheartening to see a reduction of funding to an area that covers mental health policy development and delivery, including CAMHS, suicide and self-harm prevention, funding for third-sector organisations and the healthcare needs of vulnerable groups, including support for veterans, sexual assault referral centres and asylum seekers and refugees. The cut in funding comes as a Time to Change Wales survey found that over half the respondents had either an experience of a mental health problem or knew someone who did in the 12 months up to the survey.
Turning to education, at a time when Labour Government Ministers have been telling us that raising school standards is an underlying objective of education reform, it is baffling that support for school standards has been cut by over £0.5 million. Additional learning needs has also experienced a cut in funding, despite the National Association of Head Teachers stating that 92 per cent of school leaders reported that funding for pupils with additional learning needs was insufficient. While I welcome pay rise offers to teachers, it is crucial that Labour Ministers do not lose sight of the fact that these strikes are occurring as a direct result of understaffing and overworked teachers. It is vital that more is done to resolve the workload pressures that many teachers are facing and increase the number of teachers in Welsh schools.
From an environmental perspective, again, it is concerning that Natural Resources Wales has had its funding decreased by almost £0.5 million, ignoring warnings that the organisation is underfunded and overworked, even though it's an area that we are expecting them to deliver so much for us on.
Going forward, Minister, it is vital that the Labour Government focuses on funding the priorities of the people of Wales, rather than sticking to empty rhetoric. Only through the Welsh Government's financial backing can we hope to reverse Wales's record of long NHS waiting times, poor educational outcomes and the disastrous housing crisis. Thank you.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you to the Minister for presenting this supplementary budget, and thank you to the Finance Committee for the scrutiny work that they've done, which, of course, is valuable, as usual. Of course, this is the Government's supplementary budget, so it doesn't necessarily reflect the priorities we would want to promote in all cases, but I do think that there are broader messages, which are clearly highlighted in what we have seen in this supplementary budget.
In the first instance, it reminds us of the lack of flexibility for the Welsh Government, when it comes to responding to the challenges facing us—the restrictions, as we heard from the Chair of the Finance Committee, on the level of draw-down the Government can make from the Welsh reserve, the restrictions on borrowing levels, and none of those has increased or changed to respond to the inflation that we've seen. So not only is there a lack of flexibility, but that flexibility is shrinking year on year, given the current circumstances.
Another deficit that's been highlighted, and, of course, it is highlighted on a daily basis now, is the lack of budgetary justice. We are talking about a lack of consequentials as a result of HS2. It was good to hear the list of wants that the Conservative spokesperson had; that money would pay for that and more. But I have to say, I'm not encouraged by the response of the Labour Party to this, and the failure of the leader of the UK Labour Party to commit to put right that wrong, which, of course, is in contrast with the Welsh Government's own policy. So, I am sure that the Minister would be more than happy to express her disappointment that that pledge wasn't made by the leader of her party on a UK level.
Clearly, the spring statement will happen this week in Westminster. We, as a party, have made it clear that prioritising public sector pay is something that is important to us, and I would be confident that, if there is additional funding available, it would be used mainly to that end. I want to echo the message that we heard from the Chair of the Finance Committee in terms of the recommendation in the report, I think it's recommendation 5, on providing more financial certainty and consistency to local authorities to support those escaping the disaster in Ukraine. Whatever the changes at a UK Government level, we need some assurance in our local authorities.
For me, as a former member of the Finance Committee, I've complained when some of the sponsored bodies approached us and asked for more funding, so I think, in fairness, it is worth noting that funding has been returned in the supplementary budget by the public service ombudsman and by the Senedd Commission too. Like the committee, I do expect the Audit Wales relocation, which will have costs, will bring savings over a period of time. So, just to keep the balance, I think it's important that we recognise that. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: The second supplementary budget is a relatively minor movement of money, and completes the budget system for the year. I want to just make three very brief points.
I welcome the areas prioritised by the Welsh Government in this supplementary budget and the approach taken by the Minister in managing the resources available as we near the end of the financial year. I would like to agree with the Finance Committee that where money is allocated in Wales, it should be able to moved to reserves or from reserves to expenditure with no Westminster Treasury involvement. Last year, over £150 million was lost to Wales because the Government had not spent it and it was not allowed to be added to the reserve. We need to move away from the Welsh Government being treated as a Westminster department by the Treasury. That's the problem we've got, and I think it's one, as we talk about devolution, that we really do need to resolve. We're a Government and a Parliament, not just another department within Westminster. Can I again urge the Welsh Government to bring a debate to the Senedd supporting full control over reserves? All political parties have supported it in the Finance Committee, and it would make life a lot easier and make the argument a lot stronger for the Welsh Government if they could go and tell Westminster, 'This is the will of the whole of the Parliament.' The committee was assured by the Minister that no money would be returned this year.
Secondly, it is important that overspends by health boards are met from the health and social services budget, but if they cannot, then responsibility falls to the general reserve, because each health board's budget is part of the consolidated Welsh Government account. I think, sometimes, we talk about health boards as if they're something separate. If we were a business, they'd be wholly owned subsidiaries of the Welsh Government, and as such, the Welsh Government has responsibility for their financial position, and they have to ensure that, overall, they have enough money to pay their bills.
Finally, it is very important that the Welsh Government maximises the benefits of money spent, not just spending it.

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. I'm grateful to colleagues for their contributions in the debate today. Of course, the second supplementary budget is an important part of our budget process. Its approval will authorise the revised spending plans of the Welsh Government and those bodies directly funded from the Welsh consolidated fund, and, of course, it sets the limits against which our final outturn position will be compared.
I'm very grateful to the Finance Committee and to colleagues for their continued support for the Welsh Government's efforts to gain greater fiscal flexibilities, and those discussions are ongoing with the UK Government at the moment. We did have a small step forward, I think, in terms of the end of this financial year, but we're certainly nowhere near where we need to be.
To address Mike Hedges's particular point about the 2020-21 issue, just to confirm again to colleagues—I know that I've circulated a letter to colleagues on this point previously—that, as a devolved Government, we did operate within the DEL budgetary controls set by HM Treasury, and we should have been allowed a reasonable level of flexibility in relation to the individual revenue and capital controls. There were numerous discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury of the time, asking them to allow that additional flexibility, bearing in mind, of course, that 2020-21 was an exceptional year in terms of there being a pandemic and the quite significant increase to the Welsh Government's budget as a result of that.
It is also worth, I think, putting on record once again that the total underspend in 2020-21 by all UK Government departments was £25 billion, and that represents almost 6 per cent of the total provision made available to those departments in that year. All underspends by UK departments were returned to HM Treasury, and the Department for Health and Social Care alone underspent by over 9 per cent, returning £18.6 billion to the Treasury. Our Barnett share of that would have been around £1 billion for Wales, so in contrast, our underspend represented only 1 per cent of the available resources, and as I said, it was well within our overall departmental expenditure limit anyway. And I really think that that just demonstrates the importance of those discussions going on regarding fiscal flexibilities, and the importance of this Senedd speaking with one voice in that regard.
I understand the points made by colleagues about the importance of certainty for partners. That's always something we intend to give as much as we possibly can, so we've done that through our three-year spending review process, which I think has given that level of certainty for the years going forward.
One of the Finance Committee's recommendations that I'll have to give more thought to is the one about giving more frequent updates on the levels of funding within reserves, because, of course, that changes all the time, almost by the nature of it, in terms of underspends emerging across departments, and by the time the information is published, it would be well out of date. So, I think that we'll have to give some further thought to that. But just reassuring colleagues that all of this is very tightly managed. I have meetings with the finance director and with officials on a monthly basis, and we get reports from right across Government. So, we are able to keep a very close watch on those figures, but I'm not sure how useful publishing it would be, bearing in mind that it is information that needs to be viewed on a very timely basis.
On the point about the additional funding for health, of course, this is in relation to the exceptional energy costs arising in 2022-23, and the COVID-19 measures that are ongoing in this financial year in respect of the health and social services main expenditure group. That's an important contribution that we're making to meeting those costs. So, I certainly won't be taking any lessons from the Conservatives on how we go about supporting our hard-working NHS staff. You'll see the quite extreme efforts that we've gone to to try and find funding to come to an arrangement with our health workers to ensure that they are paid appropriately. And those discussions, I know, are stalling across the border, and of course, you will see from what we're voting on today that we've taken down all of the funding that we were able to do so in this financial year to meet the costs of that. And I think that that is a really big and important step, but it just shows how far we are willing to go to support our NHS and education workers here in Wales.
In terms of Ukraine, I think that, again, important points were made in terms of trying to ensure that the UK Government provides the funding that is needed to support people coming from Ukraine. They've given no indication that there will be funding for people in their second and third years, in terms of the support that they're offered. There are many aspects with the support that is already offered, which are just not sufficient—for example, treating the family scheme differently to the Homes for Ukraine scheme in terms of the UK Government support in that space as well.
So, Welsh Government, as you'll see from the budget we're voting on today, is providing support well over and above the funding that we've received from UK Government, because we knew it was the right thing to do to provide that initial wraparound support, which was more generous than that which was available across the border. But it's been really important in terms of ensuring that people from Ukraine can avoid the perils of homelessness, and again, that's been something, I think, that has been quite contrasted with the experience across the border as well.
So, just to conclude, we have had to make difficult decisions this year to ensure that the funds available to us are directed to where they're needed most, and we are, of course, committed to supporting our public services, to providing resources for the humanitarian response to the war in Ukraine and delivering the Welsh Government's priorities. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

10. Debate: Stage 4 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill

Item 10 today is the debate on Stage 4 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership to move the motion, Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM8222 Hannah Blythyn
To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:
Approves the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: To begin with, thank you to everyone for their work on this Bill—Senedd Members and many others. Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: The scrutiny process for this Bill has been rigorous and challenging, which is as it should be, but it has been conducted in a productive manner throughout. I appreciate that a Bill of this nature was unlikely to secure universal support across all parties, but you have sought to reach compromise where possible and to respectfully acknowledge differences where these cannot be overcome. We've worked closely with Plaid Cymru and engaged constructively with the Equality and Social Justice Committee. I believe that the amendments that have been made to the Bill as a result of the Senedd's scrutiny have improved it. I restate my commitment to non-government parties and, of course, Members of my own back benches who have taken an active interest in this Bill, that I will continue to engage with you in a meaningful way in the coming months as we develop the supporting guidance that will be so important in bringing this legislation to life.
A special word of thanks must go to the committee clerks, Senedd lawyers and other Commission staff for their professional and supportive approach throughout. The way in which this Bill has progressed through the scrutiny process and to the timetable agreed at the outset is a testimony to your hard work and dedication. I extend the same thanks to Welsh Government officials who have very much pulled out all the stops to get us to this point. In fact, I think they're sick of the sight of me. But, in all seriousness, I and my Cabinet colleagues recognise and appreciate your efforts.
Finally, a sincere thank you to all of our external stakeholders and partners, from those who have been on this journey from the outset and responded to our original consultation on the draft Bill, to all who contributed evidence and all who have leant us their expertise throughout the scrutiny process. I think it's fair to say that the spirit in which this legislation has been developed is in itself a model of social partnership working. We will continue to count on that support and experience in the coming months as we move on to the work needed to successfully put this legislation into practice. And there is much still to be done. There is subordinate legislation to be made, guidance and procedures to be developed, and training and support to be rolled out. I will, of course, keep Members and stakeholders updated on our implementation plan.
In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I thank Members and social partners once again for their co-operation, input and challenge. This is landmark legislation that puts our Welsh way of working on a more formal footing and one that'll make a real difference to the people of Wales. I urge all Members to support the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. Diolch.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I first of all thank the Deputy Minister for her statement? I know that she's worked very hard on getting the Bill to this point. I must also acknowledge that I'm speaking today on behalf of my group, as Joel James normally would, and I know how disappointed he is that he can't be here for the Stage 4 part of the Bill today. But I know that he wants to thank everybody who has worked really hard in getting the Bill to this point, and in particular the assistance he's received from those who have helped him scrutinise the Bill and get it to this point as well.
He's left me a lot of notes in terms of the problems, which I'm pleased to tell the Senedd that I won't go through in detail. [Laughter.] But in a nutshell, I'm afraid we can't support this Bill today, because social partnerships are a good thing—let me just start by saying that—if they happen organically to solve a problem. However, legislating for them doesn't necessarily mean that social partnerships are going to be successful and, unfortunately, we're still at a loss in terms of the problem that the Welsh Government is trying to solve and how the legislation we see today achieves it.
A key recommendation, for example, that the Equality and Social Justice Committee mentioned was to agree headline outcomes and the key metrics that you're using to achieve them, but this is still absent from the final Bill. We've also put in amendments to the Bill that asked for a role for businesses—small, medium and large—when two thirds of employees in Wales are working for the private sector. Unfortunately, they were turned down as well, so, that is disappointing. In our minds, this Bill offers little to no improvement for the economic health of Wales and, at worst, wastes £30 million of taxpayers' money that has come from other Welsh Government budgets and will cause considerable red tape for SMEs and public bodies who just want to get on with doing the job. And so, Dirprwy Lywydd, we won't be supporting the Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has worked on this Bill—everyone from the fantastic team at Plaid Cymru to committee staff, to Senedd lawyers, and not forgetting the Deputy Minister and her officials. Everyone has pulled out the stops to get this to this point in a relatively short space of time.
I would have preferred the Bill to have included a stronger provision for increasing public procurement to boost the Welsh economy and, dare I say it, targets, but politics is often about the art of a compromise. Compromise and concessions were made to arrive at where we are today.Through collaborative work, Plaid Cymru has managed to gain concessions that strengthen this Bill and futureproofit for years to come.
We amended section 9 of the Bill to add a requirement for Welsh Ministers to produce guidance to which the social partnership council must have regard to ensure that its membership is representative of the various sectors that will be impacted by the procurement duties. The amendments to section 27 adds additional protected characteristics to the face of the Bill. Our futureproofing amendment allows this Government, or indeed any future Government, to amend the Bill, subject to the affirmative vote in the Senedd. Also, an amendment to section 42 will ensure that we have, for the first time, a consistent standard baseline of data on the impacts of public procurement on the well-being of Wales in the widest sense. I'm also pleased that this Bill is now stronger on the matter of the Welsh language and the role that public procurement has in promoting and facilitating the use of the language by businesses and organisations across Wales.
This Bill not only shows what can be done with teamwork but also shows that Wales is on a path that is distinct from the path chosen by Westminster. Where they seek to marginalise, to suppress and to condemn, here in Wales, we will continue to work collaboratively with people and organisations to seek positive resolutions to the problems our communities face. Long may those differences continue. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Deputy Minister to reply to the debate.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. At the risk of getting a little like the Oscars, I want to once again thank everyone for their contributions today but also throughout the process. Many of us in this Chamber and outside it will know that this is legislation that has been a long time in the making, and we've got here with a healthy dose of perseverence but also a lot of partnership working as well. It has been a real privilege to lead this legislation through the Senedd, and Iwould ask Members once again today to support the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions. So, I defer voting on this motion until voting time, which is our next item.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. No. Okay.

11. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on item 9, the second supplementary budget 2022-23. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 24 abstentions, none against. The motion is therefore agreed.

Item 9.: The Second Supplementary Budget 2022-23: For: 27, Against: 0, Abstain: 24
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on Stage 4 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion to approve the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 10: Stage 4 of The Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:59.

A Message from His Majesty The King, Head of the Commonwealth

Commonwealth Day was an occasion of particular pride for my beloved Mother, The late Queen—a treasured opportunity to celebrate our Commonwealth family, to whose service she dedicated her long and remarkable life.
In succeeding Her Majesty as Head of the Commonwealth, I draw great strength from her example, together with all that I have learnt from the extraordinary people I have met, throughout the Commonwealth, over so many years.
The Commonwealth has been a constant in my own life, and yet its diversity continues to amaze and inspire me. Its near-boundless potential as a force for good in the world demands our highest ambition; its sheer scale challenges us to unite and be bold.
This week marks the tenth anniversary of the Charter of the Commonwealth, which gives expression to our defining values—peace and justice; tolerance, respect and solidarity; care for our environment and for the most vulnerable among us.
These are not simply ideals. In each lies an imperative to act, and to make a practical difference in the lives of the 2.6 billion people who call the Commonwealth home.
Whether on climate change and biodiversity loss, youth opportunity and education, global health, or economic co-operation, the Commonwealth can play an indispensable role in the most pressing issues of our time. Ours is an association not just of shared values, but of common purpose and joint action.
In this we are blessed with the ingenuity and imagination of a third of the world's population, including one and a half billion people under the age of thirty. Our shared humanity contains such precious diversity of thought, culture, tradition and experience. By listening to each other, we will find so many of the solutions that we seek.
This extraordinary potential, which we hold in common, is more than equal to the challenges we face. It offers us unparalleled strength not merely to face the future, but to build it. Here, the Commonwealth has an incredible opportunity, and responsibility, to create a genuinely durable future—one that offers the kind of prosperity that is in harmony with nature and that will also secure our unique and only planet for generations to come.
The myriad connections between our nations have sustained and enriched us for more than seven decades. Our commitment to peace, progress and opportunity will sustain us for many more.
Let ours be a Commonwealth that not only stands together, but strives together, in restless and practical pursuit of the global common good.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies: How will the Welsh Government help develop the economic potential of the south Wales valleys?

Mark Drakeford: We will continue to work closely with our partners in the local authorities and Cardiff capital region to ensure a sustainable future for the south Wales Valleys, despite the challenges faced by the reduction in funding from the UK Government via the shared prosperity and levelling-up funds.

Natasha Asghar: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure the effective delivery of public transport in south-east Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Our transport policy, 'Llwybr Newydd', sets out our ambitious plans to ensure that everyone in Wales can travel more sustainably, helping reduce the impacts of climate change. The Burns delivery board’s annual report demonstrates progress towards achieving this, but UK Government investment in vital infrastructure is needed for this to continue.

Tom Giffard: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support mental health in Bridgend?

Mark Drakeford: We continue to provide significant and sustained funding to support the provision of mental health services within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area. The NHS delivery unit supports the board to improve services and to provide assurance that necessary progress is being made.

Heledd Fychan: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce river pollution in South Wales Central?

Mark Drakeford: Investment, legislative drivers and support, coupled with a robust regulatory framework will drive river water quality improvement. Last week’s phosphate summit brought together all those with a part to play in reducing river pollution.

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Laura Anne Jones: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to make transport for people who are learning at higher education institutions more accessible and affordable?

Julie James: Our Wales transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', aims to reduce the cost and improve the accessibility of sustainable transport for everyone in Wales, including students. Our programme for government includes commitments to invest in buses, rail and active travel, and to explore options for extending the MyTravelPass scheme for young people.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the Minister make a statement on the accessibility of the Welsh building safety fund?

Julie James: Our Welsh building safety fund asks that responsible persons of buildings of 11 metres and more submit an expression of interest. This is the starting point for accessing support from the Welsh Government. I encourage responsible persons to complete an expression of interest for their buildings as soon as possible.

Vikki Howells: What measures is the Welsh Government taking to improve road safety?

Julie James: We are developing a new road safety strategy that will complement 'Llwybr Newydd: The Wales Transport Strategy 2021' and the 'National Transport Delivery Plan 2022 to 2027'. We are also progressing two major road safety initiatives from our programme for government: introducing a 20 mph default speed limit on restricted roads and tackling pavement parking.

Sioned Williams: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to protect leaseholders' rights in South Wales West?

Julie James: Upcoming England and Wales legislation will enhance leaseholders’ rights by addressing the Law Commission’s recommendations for reform; improving service charge transparency; reforming legal costs; and ending the taking of commission for leasehold buildings insurance. A joint approach has many benefits, including enabling reforms to be implemented more quickly in Wales.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Mark Isherwood: How does the Welsh Government support deaf school pupils?

Jeremy Miles: We continue to support deaf pupils. Equity and inclusion are at the heart of both the additional learning needs system and the Curriculum for Wales, which aim to help ensure that all children and young people have access to an education that enables them to reach their potential.

Sam Rowlands: What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve educational outcomes in North Wales?

Jeremy Miles: Local authorities in north Wales, in partnership with the GwE consortium, are primarily responsible for ensuring the quality of school education in their localities. The Welsh Government supports those efforts by providing a framework for evaluation, improvement and accountability and the implementation of the new Curriculum for Wales.